[Sven Nilsen]

All of this is copied from David's post earlier in the thread:

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

[Sven Nilsen]

So we are left with the task of trying to identify what hole on the course CBM was referring to when he discussed the 12th at Biarritz.

At this point, I think it makes sense to refer to one of the course maps that has been posted before by David:



Notice the area on the map identified as the Grouse Moor.  

In 1899, the following appeared in Country Life Magazine (http://books.google.com/books?id=P0NOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA352&dq=biarritz+grouse+moor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W32yUsCzM-2MyAHg74HYCQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20grouse%20moor&f=false):

"It is true that many of the holes have been lost to the golfer, and taken by the builder.  The famous "chasm" has gone; but there is still a chasm - an iron shot hole.  Moreover, the "grouse moor," as it was profanely called, is no only crossed twice instead of four times, for which many will be sincerely grateful.  To make up for many losses, there are four or five new holes below the cliff which the old fourteenth green approached."

The description in this 1899 article matches what we see on the map.  Two holes over the "grouse moor" and depending how you look at it, four or five holes in the Chambre (either 11 through 14 or 15).  

In an earlier thread, David expounded on the various reports of how the holes in the Chambre were configured in subsequent years:

- December 8, 1899. Golf Illustrated. The 11th plays down the cliff, the 14th is the Cliff hole up.   Four holes.
- November 4, 1904. Golf Illustrated ("Piscator.") The 9th hole played down into the Chambre d'Amour (335 yds to a green near the Sea.) The 14th ("Cliff" hole) was an iron shot up the cliff.   Six holes.
- February 2, 1906. Golf Illustrated Pictorial.  The 9th hole still reportedly the hole playing down the cliff.
- February 14, 1908. Golf Illustrated.  The 8th hole reportedly the hole playing down the cliff.  The 13th hole reportedly played out.
- February 26, 1909.  Golf Illustrated.  The 8th hole reportedly the playing down the cliff.  The 13th hole reportedly played out.

What remains constant throughout these reports is that the 12th hole was in the Chambre D'Amour.

[Bryan Izatt]

I see lots of new posts I haven't been able to look at yet, but I wanted to try to put Patrick's mind at ease relative to the pictures of the 14th Cliff Hole.

Here's a revised aerial where I've moved te tee a little left and the green a little right.  I've also marked where I think the new and old photos were taken from.




The original behind the tee photo was taken from where I've marked "B Old".  The modern version is marked "B New" and is from a little closer and probably right on top of the old tee.







The other old picture I believe was taken from aside the line of play from a spot I've marked as "A Old" on the aerial.  The new picture from abou the same angle is marked "A New".  







I think the new and old images are remarkably similar.

[Ally Mcintosh]

1903 – Pearson’s Magazine – Bunkers I Have Visited – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=PbERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The most magnificent and terrifying thing in the nature of a water hazard that ever has come within the experience of the present scribbler undoubtedly is the “Chasm,” as it used to be called, at Biarritz.  By bad luck and owing to the encroachments of the French equivalent for the jerry builder, we have to write of this place in the past tense.  It still exists, but for the golfer it is no longer.  There are houses both on the side on which he used to tee, and again on the side on which he used to putt.  But still the Bay of Biscay comes thundering in up the chasm, and the golfer of to-day can look and wonder at the fearful terrors that awaited those of former times who had any habit of topping off the tee.

The length of carry from one side to the other of the chasm was quite inconsiderable – a half-iron shot or so would have compassed it – but there was a hideous moral effect and terror in the Atlantic tumbling and rumbling at the foot of the high precipitous cliffs.  You cannot measure these effect by material feet and yards.  They take a more subtle gauge.  

Sven,

Does this indicate that the second iteration of the chasm hole (as per your previous posts and Bryan's google earth illustration earlier) was also no longer in existence by 1903? It states that both the former tee site (i.e. new green site) and former green site had succumbed to housing... It certainly suggests it anyway....

Either way, the chasm is definitely not CBM's inspiration... It is the development of those facts that hold most interest to this thread...

Thanks,
Ally

[Sven Nilsen]

While examining the early 18 hole routing map, note that some of the holes are named in the box in the top left.  Below I've tried to match the information from the map with the descriptions contained in the 1890 letter to the editor from the club secretary describing the original 9 hole layout.



Letter - 1st Hole - The "Pigeon Hole" - 300 yards - A fair drive brings you to the edge of some rough, broken ground, covered with clumps of sedge grass.  160 yards from the tee; a cleek, or brassy shot will easily carry the rough ground, which is about 80 yards in extent, and a short iron shot will be probably wanted to reach the green.
Map - 1st Hole - 325 yards
Probably close to the same hole.

Letter - 2nd Hole - The "Sea Hole" - 260 yards - A good drive will get you on towards the corner of the road, which is 200 yards from the tee; from here a full iron shot will reach the green.  A careful approach is wanted here, as the hole is on a strip of turf, 30 yards wide, between the road and the edge of the cliff; a ball pulled round to the left will go over the cliff into the Bay of Biscay, a ball sent to much to the right will drop out of bounds into some cultivated land, which entails loss of stroke and distance, while too gay a shot in the right direction will land you in some whins beyond the hole.
Map - 2nd Hole - 250 yards
Probably close to the same hole.

Letter - 3rd Hole - The "Chasm Hole"
Map - 3rd Hole - The Chasm - 90 yards
The letter notes this hole was around 200 yards (80 yard carry plus 120 yards to the green).  As we've established, we're talking about two different versions of the Chasm Hole.

Letter - 4th Hole - The "Long Hole" - 480 yards -  - Ten yards in front of the tee is a large and “hairy” hedge, then comes a skittle ground and then a corner of a cultivated field, which is out of bounds, so a topped or foozled ball entails the loss of stroke and distance.  But 60 yards clears all these impediments, and after the teed shot there are no formidable hazards to be encountered, only a disused road with a small ditch on each side, which runs parallel with the line to the hole for some distance.
Map - 4th Hole - Octroi - 450 yards
This one is a bit confusing.  The hole on the Map runs to the left towards the Grouse Moor.  But from the description of the 5th Hole in the Letter, it would seem that the 4th would have run towards the area of the course containing the Punch Bowl (as marked on the Map), or to the right.  The "cultivated field" discussed in the letter could be the same area described in the write up of the 2nd hole.

Letter - 5th Hole - The "Punch-bowl Hole" - 400 yards - Any drive over 120 yards will clear a bank and narrow land, which crosses the line to the hole; a good brassy shot will then bring you somewhere near the Punchbowl, a deep circular pit, with nearly perpendicular sides and about thirty yards in diameter.  This hazard is in the direct line to the hole, and some 300 yards from the tee, and 80 yards in front of the hole.  
Map - 10th Hole - The Punch Bowl - 270 yards
With the changes in yardage, it appears that this hole was either realigned, with a new green, or was drastically shortened.

Letter - 6th Hole - "Shand's" - 320 yards - A fair drive of 160 yards brings you to the edge of “Shand’s Ravine,” ... a cleek or brassy shot will take you over, but the lies are not bad if you get in, and a short approach shot will lay you on the green.
Map - 16th Hole - Shand's Ravine - 324 yards
Appears to be the same hole with no real changes.  The description in the letter closely matches what we see on the Map.

Letter - 7th Hole - The "Hole Across" - 115 yards
This hole does not appear on the map, and may have been consumed into the Ladies Course.

Letter - 8th Hole - The "Dell Hole" - 160 yards - This hole is also a short one, being about 160 yards, ... and in front of the hole is a deepish dell about forty yards across, but which is easy to play out of if you drop in, as many do.
Map - 17th Hole - The Dell - 176 yards
Like "Shand's" the Dell appears to have survived the initial changes in much the same form.

Letter 9th Hole - The "Home Hole" - 360 yards - This wants an accurately directed teed shot, as there is the Punchbowl on the right, and the Dell on the left, both about 130 yards from the tee; but having avoided these hazards, you have good lying ground for 200 yards, then a narrow lane, with deep banks to cross, and 80 yards to the hole.

I'd surmise that the routing of the original course was as follows:

1st Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 1st on the map.
2nd Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 2nd on the map.
3rd Hole - Along the cliff edge near the location of the 2nd green on the map.
4th Hole - From somewhere close to where we believe the 3rd green lay (near the X on the map) to a location near where the 5th tee would have been.
5th Hole - Played over the Punch Bowl, suggesting it ran on a similar line to the 10th hole on the map but longer.
6th Hole - The same as 16 on the map.
7th Hole - A short hole of 115 yards that played from near the 16th green to close to the 17th tee on the map.
8th Hole - The same as 17 on the map
9th Hole - Close to the same as 18 on the map, playing between the Punchbowl on the right and the Dell on the left.

Here's the map with the original 9 hole routing marked, with one possible solution for how 4 and 5 worked (each marked in orange).  For the perfectionists in the group, this is only meant to be a rough attempt at identifying the routing.

[Sven Nilsen]

There is at least one iteration of the course between the original 9 hole layout and what is depicted in the map.  This would be the 18 hole course that had 4 holes playing over the Grouse Moor, and no holes in the Chambre D'Amour.  The earliest description of I can find is from 1893, coinciding with what others have posted regarding the expansion to 18 holes around that date.  Some version of this layout would have existed until around 1897, when we have our first description of holes being created down in the Chambre.

Unfortunately, no map of this layout exists.  We do, however, have some contemporaneous descriptions of the holes in the Moor:

April 1, 1893 – The Saturday Review of Politics, Literature, Science and Art – article entitled “Continental Golf”

http://books.google.com/books?id=O4w_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA344&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“[After discussing the Chasm Hole] The next two holes are short but abounding in difficulty; then at the sixth, the Pau golfer stands aghast.  "This!" he says; "what is this?  Is it a grouse-moor or deer-forest?"...He often says words to this effect, but more so, during the next three holes...but after the ninth hole the grouse-moor is left behind."

Oct. 1894 – Blackwoods magazine – Horace Hutchinson
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_kKxB7PPDkC&pg=PA557&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The new nine are still a little "in the rough."  These are the holes of which the Pau golfer asked aghast, "What! d'you call this a golf links?  I call it a grouse-moor!"

This routing probably looked something like this:

1, 2 and 3 - Close to the same as noted on the map.

4 and 5 - Short holes playing from near the 3rd green towards the Grouse Moor.

6, 7, 8 and 9 - Playing over the Grouse Moor.

10, 11 and 12 - Holes playing away from the Grouse Moor back towards the more northwestern part of the property, perhaps using the same corridors as 6, 7 and 8 on the map.

13 and 14 - Perhaps the old 5th hole from the 9 hole course was divided into two holes.  The new 14th hole now plays out towards the tops of the cliffs above the Chambre, coinciding nicely with this 1897 excerpt posted by Brian earlier in the thread:



15, 16, 17 and 18 - the same holes as 16, 17 and 18 on the map, only with the par 3 still in existence between the old 17 and 18.

Again, just a rough sketch:

[Sven Nilsen]

1903 – Pearson’s Magazine – Bunkers I Have Visited – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=PbERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The most magnificent and terrifying thing in the nature of a water hazard that ever has come within the experience of the present scribbler undoubtedly is the “Chasm,” as it used to be called, at Biarritz.  By bad luck and owing to the encroachments of the French equivalent for the jerry builder, we have to write of this place in the past tense.  It still exists, but for the golfer it is no longer.  There are houses both on the side on which he used to tee, and again on the side on which he used to putt.  But still the Bay of Biscay comes thundering in up the chasm, and the golfer of to-day can look and wonder at the fearful terrors that awaited those of former times who had any habit of topping off the tee.

The length of carry from one side to the other of the chasm was quite inconsiderable – a half-iron shot or so would have compassed it – but there was a hideous moral effect and terror in the Atlantic tumbling and rumbling at the foot of the high precipitous cliffs.  You cannot measure these effect by material feet and yards.  They take a more subtle gauge.  

Sven,

Does this indicate that the second iteration of the chasm hole (as per your previous posts and Bryan's google earth illustration earlier) was also no longer in existence by 1903? It states that both the former tee site (i.e. new green site) and former green site had succumbed to housing... It certainly suggests it anyway....

Either way, the chasm is definitely not CBM's inspiration... It is the development of those facts that hold most interest to this thread...

Thanks,
Ally

Ally:

Wanted to wait to respond to this until after I'd laid out the 9 hole and original 18 hole course maps.  

I'd agree that the article suggests that neither iteration was around in 1903.  Here's some additional source information that perhaps changes suggestion into confirmation:

Country Life, March 15, 1902

http://books.google.com/books?id=cEQxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA350&dq=biarritz+grouse+moor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xzyzUtW4CeGIygHz04GoCg&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20grouse%20moor&f=false

[Note:  There were a few words that were hard to make out in the text, so I apologize if anything is off.]

"Even in France the building fiend seems specially attracted by golf links.  The golf course of Biarritz has been a good deal changed owing to his encroachments, from its condition of two year ago] when the scribbler last saw it.  The chasm has gone altogether - even that modified form of chasm that replaced the more tremendous one of the original course - and gone, too, greatly to the satisfaction of the habitual "grouser," is one of those "grouse-moor" holes (and the "grousiest" of them).  By compensation, instead of the old three holes on the lower ground below the cliff, called with a savage irony the chambre d'amour, there are now five holes in that lower region."

The article goes on to describe other changes to the course:

"On the whole, the green is not less good than it used to be, and in some ways is better, but some notable bits of [injustice] have been removed.  The long shot carries over, not into the punch-bowl, for example, and Mr. Macfie(sp?)'s advide has been followed and a strip of the bunker guarding the sixteenth hole has been turfed up so that a player who has driven as straight as Mr. Macfie(sp.) can, runs up it."

[Sven Nilsen]

The next step in the evolution takes us to the layout in the routing map.  

Here's what happened (there may have been interim steps, but this is the best I can surmise from what we know):

- Holes 4 - 9 are condensed into a two hole stretch playing into and out of the Grouse Moor.
- Five holes are added into the Chambre.
- The short par 3 "Hole Across" is removed, meaning play flows directly from "Shand's" to the "Dell Hole."

And here's where things get tricky.  We have various reports of changes made to the holes in the Chambre.  it is these changes that created much of the confusion early in the thread with respect to photo identification. Without an accurate date for a photo it is very difficult to determine what version of the layout you should be using to identify the photo.  By all accounts, even if certain holes were not changed, their hole number may have.  This further complicates matters where photos have an identifying hole number.  Is it 12 on the old routing map, or is it 12 as the course was configured at a later date?

The best we can do is to try to identify the various routings, and then see what makes sense from there.  

There are two later routing maps that I've seen, one David identified earlier in this discussion as being from around 1931 and another attributed in another thread to Harry Colt's work in the 1920's (Note: The expansion of the course below the clubhouse in the Colt map suggests to me that this map is from after the 1931 layout, so I question the veracity of its attribution to Colt, but perhaps the plan just shows suggestions that were never implemented.):





On both of these routings, the holes in the Chambre D'Amour appear to be relatively in the same positions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan & David,

I've tried to put together a series of photos that would demonstrate my thoughts on the cliff hole.

Looking at the first one, I think we'd all agree that it would be impossible for anyone to play from the lower area of the beach, back up to the top of the bluff.




However, the cliff hole might have been to a plateau, cut into the cliff.
In the photo below, despite the shot being played from what appears like heavy rough, versus a tee, we can see the golfer aiming at what appears to be a plateaued green supported by a wall fronting the green and protected by a wall to the rear of the green.


In the photo below, I believe that the green the golfer was aiming at is in the lower right corner.



In addition, on the photo below,


taken from astride the tee on the cliff hole, based upon Bryan's aerial, I don't see those sheer cliffs being located on a continuation of Bryan's sight line in the aerial.  In addition, the elevation change in the aerial doesn't seem to match up with the photo above.


So, while I think Bryan, David and others have done some wonderful research and located some great photos, they don't seem to match up in terms of the location, configuration and description of the play of the hole.

One of the reasons I requested the compass points on the aerials was to try to line up the topography on the Google Aerial with the compass point on the schematic, as shown below.


I think it's possible that Bryan aligned the hole a little too much to the East

What's also troubling about the hole is trying to match HH's description of play on the hole.

The photos, old and current, seem to be in conflict with the description of how the hole plays, hence, you have to wonder if HH didn't just repeat someone else's description, without ever having watched himself.

The schematic doesn't seem to scale in that # 14 is deemed 80 yards and # 12 at 300 yards.

Lastly, I think that some, if not many are looking for a "Biarritz" green in the old photos of # 12.

Yet, we know that CBM didn't just reference a green, but, the area leading up to and flanking the green.
Hence, you wouldn't find a Biarritz green in any of those photos, but rather, probably a diluted version, without the severe features.

That's all for now.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Part of the problem in all of this analysis is that there were two versions of the cliff hole.

The first version is pictured below.  It is the 14th hole on the map of the course that you included in your post.  I've highlighted the rough areas of the tee and the green with a rectangle and an oval.



The holes in the Chambre were altered some time later, as seen in this map (I've highlighted the old location of the Cliff Hole on this map with the same rectangle and oval).  My guess for when this occurred is some time between 1899 and 1904, using the timeline for the number of holes in the Chambre provided by David earlier in the thread:

- December 8, 1899. Golf Illustrated. The 11th plays down the cliff, the 14th is the Cliff hole up.   Four holes.
- November 4, 1904. Golf Illustrated ("Piscator.") The 9th hole played down into the Chambre d'Amour (335 yds to a green near the Sea.) The 14th ("Cliff" hole) was an iron shot up the cliff.   Six holes.

The new version is hole #7 on the map.  At some point, the hole marked as #6 on the map was added, bringing the golfer back towards the location of the new Cliff Hole.  If you take a look at the layout of the roads as marked on each of the maps, the change in location becomes evident.



I think part of the problem with the analysis of the photos is that we are not identifying which version of the hole appears in each photo, leading to a bit of confusion.

I'll copy over your photos in my next post with an explanation of what I think each one depicts.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

I think the other problem we have is determining if the "as built" matched the schematic.

What might also help would be if you could overlay the current topo map of the area, depicting the elevations.

I tried to capture a topo of Biarritz, France, but, couldn't post it.

Thanks

[Sven Nilsen]

I've annotated the map of the Chambre with marks for where I think each picture was taken, with a line showing the direction the camera was pointed.



First Photo (marked in Orange) - I believe this is a shot from the tee of the hole entering the chambre almost straight down the line of play.  The green is located by the dark wall in the background, which is evident in other photos posted in this thread.



Second Photo (marked in Blue) - This photo is taken from a location near where the original Cliff Hole was located, capturing most of the Chambre D'Amour.  It is perhaps the best view we have of the hole that played along the beach to the south of the bath house, which many surmise is the 12th hole CBM was discussing.



Third photo (marked in Pink) - This is a photo to the new version of the Cliff Hole.  The retention wall is the giveaway, as seen in the photo below.



Fourth photo (marked in Black) - This is a view across the tee box for the hole entering the Chambre, with the new version of the Cliff Hole sitting on the left hand side of the photo.  Note the same retention wall we saw in the last photo.  Also note the steps leading off the tee box showing and the two golfers on the right who are looking down the line of play for that hole.



Fifth photo (marked in Grey) - This is a photo of the old version of the Cliff Hole.  The view is from the left of the tee box, closer to the beach and probably along the path that golfers would have taken from the preceding tee to reach the tee box.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Two things:

1.  I'm fairly convinced the schematics are good enough for our purposes.  But if you want to email me any topo images you have, I can get them posted.

2.  You stated:  

"Lastly, I think that some, if not many are looking for a "Biarritz" green in the old photos of # 12.

Yet, we know that CBM didn't just reference a green, but, the area leading up to and flanking the green.
Hence, you wouldn't find a Biarritz green in any of those photos, but rather, probably a diluted version, without the severe features."

I would agree that anyone looking for a Biarritz green in any of these photos is going to end up sorely disappointed.  What we should be looking for is the hogsback feature lying well short of the green as described in the following (which I've copied now twice from David's post earlier in the thread):

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

Sven

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sven - just one note of interest.

The above photo posted by David indicates a hole that does not fit on any of the three routing configurations we have seen in the chambre d'amour. I think Alfonso had called this the 12th hole somewhere previously and it is either this hole or the previously identified 12th hole that I think are most likely inspirations for CBM because they both have their green sites positioned close / just after small hogs back dune ridges.

Ally

[Sven Nilsen]

Ally -

That is the one photo that I do not have an answer for right now (ironic as it seems that this photo answered questions for others earlier in this thread).  I can place where the hole is located, essentially facing towards the location of the old version of the Cliff Hole.  The features on the cliff wall on the right side of the photo match other photos and even current Google Earth images.

One possibility is that at some point the hole that played from next to the bath house to the North was aligned more inland.  

This is also purely a guess, but I'm thinking that at some point the holes in the Chambre may have been configured like this (I'm using the c. 1904 hole numbers):

Hole 9 - Played down into the Chambre
Hole 10 - Played along the beach back towards the bath house
Hole 11 - Played from near the bath house further north
Hole 12 - Played back towards land just inland of the 10th green
Hole 13 - The hole pictured in that photo, which played back towards the tee location for the old version of the Cliff Hole
Hole 14 - The Old Version of the Cliff Hole

This would have been an interim routing prior to the addition of the new version of the Cliff Hole, which would have played up the hill to the right of this photo.

As we've seen in other photos, I don't think the number "8" on the photo has anything to do with the numbering of the hole depicted.

Two quick notes:

1. If you have the capability on your computer, right click on that photo and choose the "Search Google for this image" option.  The two sites that pop up have some interesting photos of the Chambre.  Here is one of them that I haven't seen before:



2.  In Google Earth or Maps, you can locate the switchback road that descends into the Chambre called the "Promenade des Sources."  In Street View, the land just outside the big curve back to the south on the road matches up perfectly with the photos of the New Version of the Cliff Hole, including the stone wall depicted behind the green, with the matching rock outcropping just to its right.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Three more photos:







This last photo is the most interesting.  It depicts what I believe are the two most probable locations for CBM's mythical 12th hole.  
I've marked below the greens (ovals), lines of play and possible location of the hogsback for each hole (triangles).  The hole marked in green would have been the 12th under a configuration where the entrance to the Chambre was the 11th hole.  The hole in blue would be the 12th if the entrance was the 9th hole.

Thoughts?



Also note that the hole in the photo Ally posted can be made out on the right side of this picture, running away from our viewpoint.  Based on the presence of that hole and the hole marked in blue I'm leaning towards it having been a connector to the old version of the Cliff Hole.

[Sven Nilsen]

One more version of that last photo, this time in a bigger format to hopefully highlight some of the features:

[Sven Nilsen]

I wanted to revisit some of the other photos posted in the various related threads from the past couple of years.

This shot was identified as possibly being the 11th hole.  In reality, it is a shot of the green of the new version of the Cliff Hole, with the spectators standing on the switchback road descending into the Chambre.  The tee for the 11th hole (using this designation for the hole that first plays down into the Chambre) would be on slightly higher ground off to the right side in the background of the photo or just out of the frame.



This photo has been interpreted a number of different ways.  I'm fairly convinced its a shot from the fairway of the 11th hole back up to the tee, basically showing a reverse of the entrance to the Chambre.  The new version of the Cliff Hole is visible on the left of the photo, with the fronting and backing stone walls visible on each side of the plateau green.  The 11th fairway sat in the space in the loop of the road (or path) which ran down into the Chambre.  The abrupt line running across the photo is the edge of the cliffside portion of the road, the surface of which we cannot see because of the angle of the photo.  



A view of the 11th green, showing the wall surrounding the green visible in one of the photos Pat posted earlier in the thread.



Another view of the 11th green.



Finally, the much discussed photo of the Cliff Hole.  Numbering issues aside, the topography of the cliff in this photo is a match for the location of the old version of the Cliff Hole, and you can even make out the same marks on the rock face in some of the modern photos posted by Brian.  I'd suggest those that doubt this take a moment to try to find a street view of this location on Google Earth or Maps.  My best guess for the discrepancy in the numbering is that the photo was taken at a time when the configuration of the course was somewhere in between the late 1890's routing map and the addition of the new version of the Cliff Hole (perhaps around 1908 when the 8th hole played into the Chambre and the 13th played out of it).  The presence of the same number "14" on one of the photos above makes me think it may have been some kind of code or number in a series of images, and had nothing to do with the number of the golf hole.  And I do believe that the yardage on the box matches up with the 80 yards cited for the old version of the Cliff Hole.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for posting the additional photos, Sven.  I hadn't seen them.  

On the plus side, the photos give a better look at some of the rolls or hogback features that might have been the site of the hole mentioned by CBM.   On the minus side I still don't know where they hole was located, except that it seems very likely that it was 1) In the Chambre, and 2) utilizing one of the hogback features visible in the various pics.  

Some of the photos show a house at the far east end of the Chambre.  I don't know how accurate it is, but one website says the house was built around 1919, and was moved at some later date.   One of the photos with the house is interesting because it also shows an elevated tee between the green and the house.  This would seem to date the photo to the early 1920's- before the second Cliff type hole was built over by the road down.   (That is assuming that this tee is the Cliff hole tee.)

In short, I don't know that we can accurately locate the "No. 12" hole in question.  We might get some idea of where it could be though by counting backwards from the Cliff hole which (according to GI) was No. 14 in 1906 (when CBM visited.)   If the Cliff was No. 14 then the 13th green must have been near the tee for the Cliff, and the green for No. 12 must be near the tee for No. 13.   Obvious I guess, but figuring out the actual routing at this time was not so obvious.  

I don't have time to try and figure out what the routing could have been right now but will try to come up with something in the next day or two.  Sven, have you come up with notion of what the routing may have been in 1906?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David & Sven,

I think part of our difficulty is that some are equating the "hogback" with the prominent feature found on CBM's/SR's/CB/s Biarritzes.

Ergo, they're looking for that feature in the photos.

CBM exagerated that feature to form the basis for his Biarritz, but, in the form he first discovered it, it was much more subtle, hence, you won't see what we would expect today.

What ever it was that he saw, it inspired him to create HIS Biarritz, a hole with very pronounced, if not exagerated features.

He also applied and basically confined his concept to par 3's, not par 4's or par 5's.

When you look at the site of some of his Biarritzes, they're compelling.

I believe that CBM/SR elicited the concept of the Biarritz from the 12th hole, and then, on specific sites, made the quantum leap of introducing the Biarritz on dramatic landforms, reminiscent of the "chasm" hole.

When you look at Yale, Fishers Island and to a lesser degree Piping Rock and even at The Creek, the combination of the 12th hole and "chasm" hole at Biarritz seem to clearly be the foundation of his "Biarritz"

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  Looking at those great ridges running across the Chambre, I don't know whether CBM exaggerated the hogback feature later or de-emphasized it.  Either way, I think part of the problem in finding the hole is CBM was taking an idea or an inspiration, not the actual golf hole.  He himself said that the actual hole was not a very good hole.  He may have looked at the 12th on that old map and said, "this hole doesnt work, but this would be great if the hogback was more in line with the green so that the golfer would have to hit a straight shot in or risk being deflected, etc.   So we may be looking for something that didn't even quite exist except in CBM's mind.  

Bryan has made that point repeatedly in reference to the Leven hole, but I think it is worth repeating.  CBM wasn't dealing in copies or rote imitation, he was dealing in ideas and core concepts.  Our inability to find the model hole at Biarritz may be because the "model" was more in CBM's mind than on the ground anywhere at Biarritz.
____________________________

As for the Chasm, I still have my doubts that the Chasm at Biarritz played any role in shaping his later holes.  As has been covered extensively, the real Chasm didn't even exist in 1906 when he saw the hole, and the shorter less compelling version probably didn't exist either (or if it did it was in a very watered down form.)    And there is no evidence he had seen the hole when it did exist in the 1890's. That said there were lots of holes playing over chasms and or quarries or pits or ponds or rivers, etc. that CBM may have seen and he may have liked the idea for the Biarritz.

But most likely, the connection between the Chasm at Biarritz and the CBM "Biarritz" concept hole is just plain erroneous.

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

The first version of the routing is easy, as it is marked on the early routing map.  I've annotated that map to emphasize the layout:



And here's how that routing looks overlaid on a photo of the Chambre D'AMour:

[Sven Nilsen]

However, I don't believe that what I depicted in the last post is the routing that CBM saw.  As you noted, in 1904 the Chambre had this configuration:

- November 4, 1904. Golf Illustrated ("Piscator.") The 9th hole played down into the Chambre d'Amour (335 yds to a green near the Sea.) The 14th ("Cliff" hole) was an iron shot up the cliff.   Six holes.

Using the same map and the same photo, this is my best guess at how those 6 holes played.  What was the 11th is now the 9th, with two holes added between what was 13 and the Cliff Hole.  



On the photo I've marked the area of interest for this discussion, as I believe this was the 12th hole when CBM saw the course (dating this photo is tough, but I think we can agree that it was before the house was built in 1919 at the top left of the photo).



A close up of the area of interest.

[Sven Nilsen]

A quick tangent.

Here's a current image of the location of the Cliff Hole (new version):



Here are old photos of that hole for comparison:





And another with the green on the left side of the photo.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I would disagree for the following reason.

If I took you to Pine Valley and the 5th hole no longer existed due to rerouting and redesign, you would no doubt want to visit the abandoned hole and I'd be anxious to show it to you.

With CBM's enthusiasm and thirst for knowledge, I can't imagine him visiting Biarritz and not visiting the abandoned holes.

And, I still believe that Colt's design of # 5 at Pine Valley was inspired, if not directly copied from the "chasm" hole at Biarritz

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()