[Nigel Islam]

David's post in 140 references the Cliff as being "a full mashie shot." As I recall a mashie was the equivalent of a mid iron, but not sure how far one could carry that in 1900. It would seem an 80 yard shot that steeply uphill would be described as a niblick shot to me. Anyone else find that statement worthy of dissection?

[DMoriarty]

Ally,  Bryan posted those photos to which (I think) you are referring, and thanks to him for so doing. I hadn't seen the newer ones.   I think he said the "59" slide was dated 1903, but he doesn't seem too confident in the date.

I wish I was as confident as you that we have clearly identified Macdonald's inspiration.  I still have my doubts, and I don't think we have enough information to draw a solid conclusion.   If the only holes to choose from were the ones on that old plan, then I think the hole marked as the 12th was by far the most likely candidate, but when CBM and HJW saw the course in 1906 there were a few other holes down there as well, and it is not even absolutely clear that the 12th hole was as it was on that old map.  

In short, according to a February 1906 Golf Illustrated article No. 9 played down into the Chambre and No. 14 (the Cliff hole) played out.  So this leaves 10-13.  We don't know exactly how they were laid out, or which one was No. 12.  That said, looking at the photos and the topo lines on the map, there appears to have been at least two large roles or ridges or hogbacks down in the bottom, one on each side of the road.  Given CBM's description, it seems that the hole in question likely utilized on one of these two features.  Given that No. 12 on that map seems to match his description pretty well, it could be the hole.  If not, then there must have been another hole similarly utilizing one of those two features.  

[BCrosby]

I apologize in advance if this has been covered, but an account of the front nine at Biarritz from Golf, 1890, by the club secretary, includes the following description of the Chasm Hole:

"3rd Hole.—The "Chasm Hole." Long lines of cliff breaking have left a chasm, as the Poet Laureate says, and on the
edge of this chasm is the teeing ground for the third hole. The chasm is 80 yards across to the further edge, so you must
loft that much. If you top your ball and go down, you tee another and play three, as there is no playing out of the chasm.
The caddies, however, can get down and recover balls, so let not the golfer who has a frugal mind be deterred from coming
hero on that account. The green is 120 yards on from the further edge, so it may be reached easily in a drive and an iron shot.

The piece does not cover the back nine, so nothing on the Cliff Hole.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I think this is the "Cliff" hole.

I think the other photos are taken from a side view and not the tee shot view as depicted below.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

It may be the cliff hole.  or it may be walk up to the Cliff hole, or it may be the upper tee to the cliff hole (I read somewhere that there were two tees and the upper tee was easier.)  Or as Ally says it may be looking back up the 11th (which later became the 9th.)  Or it may be a later version after the original cliff hole no longer existed. (I suspect that tried to find a better way out of the the bottom at some point, and have a photo of another green somewhere.)

Truth is I don't know what exactly is pictured, only that it is looking from the bottom of the Chambre up at the Cliffs.
_________________________________________________________

Bob,

Thanks for posting the letter. I considered posting it to help explain to Patrick how a lost ball might have been handled at the Cliff, but didn't want to confuse him.    In 1890 (when Golf letter published the letter) the course had not yet been expanded to 18 holes.  

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, where in that picture is the tee, and where is the green? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

There's a distinct difference between playing the chasm hole and the cliff hole.

On the chasm hole you hit your tee shot over the edge of a Cliff that's the margin for a hazard below, to a green, perched on a continuation of the cliff on the other side of that hazard.

On the Cliff hole you tee off from a lower tee, not in or over a hazard to an elevated green, hence errant tee shots were NOT deemed lost in a hazard.

Some of the descriptions mention telephone numbers or an inability to finish the hole, never is there any mention of simply taking a penalty, getting to the green and finishing the hole.

The photo below shows a sheer vertical cliff, but I doubt that the tee shot called for a direct frontal assault.

80 yards up a sheer 60 foot cliff would make it impossible to finish the hole once the tee shot was mishit or misjudged.


More importantly, if you look at the above photo you can see that the golfer is NOT aiming/playing directly toward that sheer cliff

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, where in that picture is the tee, and where is the green? 

Green, up top

Tee, down below

The exact locations are irrelevant

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

I didn't post that description of the Chasm because I wanted to avoid aChasm vs. the Cliff rules debate.  For what it is worth, I don't think the Chasm was a water hazard as it didn't play over water and golfers were prohibited from playing out of it.  Regardless, I don't think it matters as to whether the Cliff hole existed.  It did exist as repeatedly described and pictured.

As for the rules issue, Leach directly addresses it:

"Then there is a local rule saying that if the ball reaches the top of the cliff, but does not pass the wire, it must be teed again, with loss of distance only, the man not being allowed to play it from the tee side of the wire. (He would do so at peril of toppling over the cliff!)"

What exactly are we arguing here?   From the numerous descriptions and photos, the hole obviously existed and it obviously played up a cliff.    Sure it created problems for bad golfers and sure the whole thing is of questionable merit, but that is why it was famous, and was apparently part of its charm.  Here is something else Leach said about the hole, that touches on the spirit of the hole despite its obvious problems:

Biarritz . . . has some holes which, as we think upon them at home in England, seem quite shockingly bad. They are not so much bad as nearly improper. And yet when we are at Biarritz we do love these holes, as do the great players without exception, and as lief would we suggest the filling up of the Cardinal bunker at Prestwick and the flattening of that range of Himalayas at the same glorious golfing place as touch an inch of the face of the Cliff hole at Biarritz. The course has the gravest faults, but it is very enjoyable to play upon in February, and in the winds that blow there one needs to be playing uncommonly well to get round in figures reasonably low.

More importantly, if you look at the above photo you can see that the golfer is NOT aiming/playing directly toward that sheer cliff

How about in this one?



(In fairness, I think this may be to a later version of the hole.)

[DMoriarty]

I found some of the photos I mentioned earlier.

Here is the photo identified as the 12th green, from Golf Illustrated, 1904. It doesn't provide much guidance as to the features before the green.


From the same Golf Illustrated.  The location of the 12th tee on the old map is somewhere above the golfers' heads.  Maybe the dark strip or maybe right next to it.


One more from GI in 1904  (All these photos were repeated in GI every couple of years:


One of the hole playing down into the Chambre which was the 11th on the map, but 9th in 1906 according to GI.  The green was originally way back in the corner over the road and by the ocean (next to the artificial break) but was eventually shortened so the green was short of the road.  Not sure when this happened or where the green is in this photo.   Note what looks like a short ridge right on the other side of the road.


Another green which seems to be about where the 13th was on the old map:


This was another hole down in the Chambre that was added sometime after the hole on the map.  Note the long ridge to the left of the tee,  If a hole played along the spine of this ridge (or another like it, it might have the characteristics described by CBM, 

Here is a strange one.   It is the tee playing down into the Chambre, but notice the green behind and below the tee. I don't know whether it was approached from above or below, but I think it played up from below (see photo is last post) and it could be a later-added escape route out of the Chambre instead of the daunting Cliff hole.



Finally, here are some more photos of the Chambre itself, some of which may have been posted before, but these are comparatively sharp (although still not sharp enough.)






I don't think any of these resolve the issue, but there they are.

[Mike Hogan]

It looks like in the last group of photos, the one with the gentleman that is hitting up the cliff, that there is a flag just below and to the left of the line formed by the lighter/darker colored rocks, or bricks in the cliff above.

The photo taken downwards with the tee and green below, you can see the same line in the rocks above the green in the cliff and the flag. I believe that is the green he is aiming at.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks David for this latest round of photos. I was unaware that there had been various configurations of the holes down by the beach. I am now in agreement that there is no definitive information on the inspiration for Macdonald... Or even the location of the cliff hole

[Michael Whitaker]

Here is a photo showing the 12th and 13th holes that was posted by Alfonso Erhardt in another thread.

I am now a believer! In this photo you can see a group playing the 12th and (possibly?) the aiming post for the 13th on top of the cliff.

This provides the proper perspective for all of the other photos and puts everything into context... at least for me.

[Sven Nilsen]

Has anyone looked into obtaining a copy of "Biarritz Golf Club - Centenaire 1888-1988"?

[DMoriarty]

Thanks David for this latest round of photos. I was unaware that there had been various configurations of the holes down by the beach. I am now in agreement that there is no definitive information on the inspiration for Macdonald... Or even the location of the cliff hole

Definitely not quite enough information to get to a definitive result at this point.   As for definite (original) location of the Cliff Hole, that is a good question.  I have a theory (or two) and wanted to run something by Bryan, but I thought I'd try to get some sort of closure on what we know and don't about the 12th mentioned by CBM first.

[Patrick_Mucci]

More importantly, if you look at the above photo you can see that the golfer is NOT aiming/playing directly toward that sheer cliff

How about in this one?

I don't  believe so.

Look at the lie that he's playing from.

Look at the obstacle he would have to conquer to get to the top, and from that lie.
Notice that he's NOT playing from a tee.

I believe that he's playing to an area/green below his feet.



(In fairness, I think this may be to a later version of the hole.)
[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I have no doubt that the "Cliff" hole existed, I'm just not sure that it existed as some have presented/represented.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  I think all most have done is post photos and the descriptions of those who had actually seen and played the hole.   As for the last photo, I don't think it is too the original cliff hole either, but to a later (post Colt) version to that green in one of my photos above.  I think he is playing to just above the first rock wall.

[DMoriarty]

Here is a photo showing the 12th and 13th holes that was posted by Alfonso Erhardt in another thread.

I am now a believer! In this photo you can see a group playing the 12th and (possibly?) the aiming post for the 13th on top of the cliff.

This provides the proper perspective for all of the other photos and puts everything into context... at least for me.

I forgot about that thread. I went back and looked at that thread and there is some good stuff, but unfortunately I don't know if the suggested numbering works.  I think both Alfonso and I were working off the assumption that No. 11 played down into the Chambre, and you seem to be working off the assumption that No. 13 was the Cliff Hole out of the Chambre.  But while 11 had played down into the bottom according to Golf Illustrated from February 1906 (about when CBM was there)  No. 9 played down into the Chambre, and No. 14 played out.  So there have to be more holes than we see here, including a hole(s) playing in the opposite direction.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,  I think all most have done is post photos and the descriptions of those who had actually seen and played the hole.  

Yes, but when a photo is posted and the caption states that it's the 14th hole, but the yardage marker indicates it's the 13th/15th hole, one has to question the accuracy of either the caption or the photo.

As for the last photo, I don't think it is too the original cliff hole either, but to a later (post Colt) version to that green in one of my photos above.  

I think he is playing to just above the first rock wall.

I'd agree, but that would seem to indicate that it wasn't the original hole.

Even if he was playing to a green on that plateau, from that lie, that would seem to indicate that it wasn't an 80 yard par 3, wouldn't you agree ?

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

I'm on my way driving to FL for the holidays which will limit my participation.  Not sure I can add much to the 12th hole as inspiration for CBM.  Just wanted to reiterate that looking at the Leven hole I would have been hard pressed to see whatever CBM saw in it.  In the case of the 12th as the Biarritz template I suspect the features were probably just as subtle.  The course by all reports was not very well built or in very good condition.

I did see another article that suggested that the Chambre holes were not used during WWI although the course was open.  So, presumably there was another rerouting in that time frame.

Vis-a-vis all the images, it's really hard to piece a coherent whole out of them that makes sense at any one point in time.

Re the 12th, although it's all circumstantial, I think I'd suggest that this 1905 postcard shows the 11th fairway going down and away and then the 12th fairway coming back to the right closer to the sea between the two dune ridges.  




And then this admittedly much later view from the other direction with some dunes still there and what looks like a swale to me where the building is suggests that the CBM landforms could have been there.  The picture of the green you posted doesn't really show us much.  I had seen it before and couldn't get anything out of it.




What's interesting about Alphonso's picture is that it appears to make the Chambre look very wide across.  Perhaps a wide angle lens.  This hole must have come somewhat later.  It appears to run back up under what was once the 11th tee.  I like the look of the dunes.  Maybe there were similar ones down by the sea where the 12th green is shown on the routing and as appear to be in the two photos above.  Maybe that's what CBM saw.  Maybe someday we'll find the clinching picture.  But for now it's the leading candidate.  Strange that on a course with two (in)famous holes that he should find something more appealing on a more nondescript hole, not to mention that it was in that hotbed of golf course design - Biarritz.





As for the "14th" hole, I need to do a little more looking.  The "blue" description you posted mentions a back cliff/ravine too.  That would probably narrow down the location of that iteration.  The picture of people teeing off with the green benched in the cliff is really interesting.  That must have been quite an engineering feat.  Surprised there is no mention of it.  It sure doesn't match the "blue" description.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Please note that many of the pictures posted here have numbers in their titles - 81, 8, 242, 505, 27 etc. Clearly they do not denote hole numbers on the golf course.  They must have had meaning to the photographer or the publisher, but not about the golf course.  I was mistaken when I first inferred that the 14 on that picture was the hole unlike you I don't have a problem admitting when I got something wrong.  If you want to believe that the pictures show people playing into unseen dells or that the carry up the hill was impossible or the hole couldn't be completed, carry on.  I don't agree.

I don't want to go on a rules digression.  The rules of golf at the time mainly contemplated match play with a few additions for stroke play.  The early R&A rules obviously didn't contemplate cliffs and rocky ground.  By 1902 the R&A created a rule for unplayable lies that would have been applicable.  And, as David has posted there were local rules.  And, most of the tourists were probably not playing formal medal competitions.  It seems from the reports that people found a way to fnish - probably even (shockingly   ) picking up there ball.

[Ally Mcintosh]

What would really help is if someone (David or Bryan) gives a quick timeline with what we know regards the chambre holes, only in terms of numbering and routing (highlighted as possible or confirmed).... Macdonald visited in 1906 did someone say?.... When was that routing map we've been working off dated from?... Incidentally, on that map it is not at all clear where the 14th (Cliff Hole at the time) plays from and too... At what date was that photo from Alfonso taken because it clearly shows a hole that is not on our sole routing map... That kind of stuff...

Unless David or Bryan wish to continue their research and collation behind the scenes which seems perfectly reasonable also...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Please note that many of the pictures posted here have numbers in their titles - 81, 8, 242, 505, 27 etc. Clearly they do not denote hole numbers on the golf course.  They must have had meaning to the photographer or the publisher, but not about the golf course.  I was mistaken when I first inferred that the 14 on that picture was the hole

unlike you I don't have a problem admitting when I got something wrong.  

The reason that you don't have a problem with it is because you're so used to being wrong.
It's almost second nature for you.

If you want to believe that the pictures show people playing into unseen dells or that the carry up the hill was impossible or the hole couldn't be completed, carry on.  I don't agree.

No surprise there, and not surprisingly, you're wrong again.
The caption, with the picture, clearly states, the "Cliff" hole, and we know that the cliff hole was # 14.
Yet, the yardage marker indicates that the photo is actually of hole # 13 or # 15.
Hence, while that sheer cliff is in the backround, the golfer is not teeing off with the intent of reaching to the top of it.

I don't want to go on a rules digression.  
The rules of golf at the time mainly contemplated match play with a few additions for stroke play.  

Also wrong.
The 1902 version/edition of the R&A rules specifically reference medal play.

The early R&A rules obviously didn't contemplate cliffs and rocky ground.

Of course they did, unless you think that they were compiled in a clairvoyant sense, with ANGC in mind.

By 1902 the R&A created a rule for unplayable lies that would have been applicable.

I cited that rule.
There was no extension, back, keeping the point of relief in line with the position of the ball and the flag stick.
There was no returning to the tee (location of prior shot)
The only relief was basically as close as possible to the area of concern.

And, as David has posted there were local rules.  

Yes, but only when you reached a certain point.

And, most of the tourists were probably not playing formal medal competitions.  It seems from the reports that people found a way to fnish - probably even (shockingly   ) picking up there ball.

"Tourists" wouldn't be entered in competitions,, match or medal, and finishing a hole, and completing a round, had to be the goal of every golfer, so for you to casually brush off, essentially skipping a hole and not posting a score, seems, unlikely and disingenuous.

Did you skip a hole and not post your scores when you played Streamsong ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

On one hand you want to dismiss Charles Blair Macdonald's written word and on the other, insert your interpretation of blurred or unclear photos.

I can understand your doubt, based upon the ambiguity or lack of definition in the photos.

So, you dismiss my interpretation of some photos, yet elevate your interpretation of blurred photos to the highest level, despite your interpretation being in direct conflict with CBM's written words.

Interesting perspective.

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