[DMoriarty]

Thanks Jim.
_________________

Bryan,  

Ardsley was an interesting project, and probably one of the earliest examples of a golf course in the US that required relatively large scale construction.  And it had some crazy features, including fences, long piles of rocks, cops, and artificial mounds/pyramids of dirt.   I've never seen a photo indicating anything like a CBM style "biarritz" green, but I have only seen photos of a few of the greens.  The course not only had a chasm hole, it also had an "Alps" hole which had artificial mounds scattered around the green.

Not sure if this was the first use of a "chasm" in the US but looking at the first 4 holes at Ardlsey, though, I think it safe to say that Dunn liked the idea of teeing off over ravines/chasms and perhaps he got that from Biarritz.   Or maybe he got it from the quarry hole at North Berwick.  Or maybe it just seemed like a cool thing to do.

Here are a few early photos (circa 1898) and a newspaper article with some renderings from December 1895.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You're missing my point which is that others, not CBM, coined the label, by equating the carry over the chasm as evidenced at the Biarritz golf course, with the name "Biarritz"

In June of 1906 CBM referred to the hole concept as being based on No. 12 at Biarritz, then again wrote much the same thing later in 1906 and 1907, and in 1913 when describing Piping Rock, Whigham specifically referred to the hole as as "a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards . . .."  
So I think it pretty safe to say that CBM and Whigham coined the label "Biarritz" for this type of hole.

That's part of my point, that CBM copied the green at # 12 at the Biarritz Golf Course, and called the hole Biarritz, because of the configuration of the green, not because of the heroic carry found at other holes at the Biarritz Golf Course.

But, as time went by, others the associated the name, Biarritz, with the heroic carry, not the configuration of the green.

At 220 yards, right on the water, I would seriously doubt that the green on the "Chasm" hole was configured anything like the green on the 9th at Yale.    

I think with Yale and other courses some must have mistakenly gotten the idea that the label "Biarritz" automatically referred to the Chasm Hole since it was by far the most famous.

Agreed

Come to think of it, I am not sure who first connected the Chasm hole to the Biarritz hole.  For all I know it might have been a relatively modern notion to connect the two.  As I have said I don't think it was CBM or HJW who ever connected the two.

Agreed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Actually, George's schematic doesn't indicate the configuration closely identified as a "Biarritz" green.

And, I think the schematic is mislabeled, that it shouldn't be labeled a "Biarritz", rather it should be labeled as the "chasm" hole at the Biarritz Golf Club.

[Rich Goodale]

Excellent work, Bryan and David.  Many thanks.

IMO you have proved that the theory that CBM/Whigham's "Biarritz" was modeled on the "Chasm" hole is false.  I am not yet sure, however, that you have identfied the actual "culprit."  To me, the various diagrams and google earth dowloads point more to what was the 11th at Biarritz, rather than the 12th.  On Bryan's post #45 you can see the old 11th green, which is now obviously part of the beach or even the sea.  From the contemporary reports on this thread, this green was reached after a downhill tee shot from the Chambre d'Amour, which was significantly elelvated (see the topo marks on the contemporary sketch).  The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A, then the 13th went down to the beach and then #14 ("La Montee de las Falaise") back up to the cliiff on which most of the course resides.  I can see that green (of which we only have a few of the long side) being fronted by a hogsback, but I can't see the 12th, with its blind tee shot, up the cliff benefitting from what we know toeday as a "Biarritz" green.

Of course, unlike Pat Mucci, I might be wrong.....

Rich

[Bill Brightly]

This has been a great thread; the research you guys do is amazing! In attempting to understand Macdonald's intent, and how influenced he might have been by the Chasm Hole in France, I always come back to what he built at The Creek. It seems obvious that this hole was built with the Bay of Biscay in mind.






From the back of the green

[Bill Brightly]

I wonder if David Moriarty and others could comment on the possiblity that the Biarritz holes Macdonald built might have been a combination of features: the drama of the tee shot at Chasm Hole at the Biarritz Club, and the Valley of Sin at St. Andrews.

I understand why the hole at the NLE Biarritz Club is so fascinating, but are we missing another hole that played a critical role in what Macdonald and Raynor built? Did Macdonald write about the Valley of Sin in connection with courses he designed? (Like the 17th at Merion. )

[Rich Goodale]

Bill

The problem with the "Valley of Sin" theory is that the "original" only plays like a CBM "Biarritz" if the pin is in a very precise place (i.e. the Sunday Open pin) and you can hit your drive to a very specific place, as the VofS is small and angled right to left.

Rich

[Bill Brightly]

Rich, here is the answer to the "problem" you suggest with the Valley of Sin theory.

CBM, writing in Scotland's Gift about the drawings he made of thirty or forty golf holes that he studied:

"these drawings were not necessarily copies of the hole from tee to green but in most instances were of the outstanding features which I thought made the hole interesting and which might be adapted to a hole of different length. Two or three features might be put in a hole which would make it more or less composite in its nature."

[DMoriarty]

Excellent work, Bryan and David.  Many thanks.

IMO you have proved that the theory that CBM/Whigham's "Biarritz" was modeled on the "Chasm" hole is false.  I am not yet sure, however, that you have identfied the actual "culprit."  To me, the various diagrams and google earth dowloads point more to what was the 11th at Biarritz, rather than the 12th.  On Bryan's post #45 you can see the old 11th green, which is now obviously part of the beach or even the sea.  From the contemporary reports on this thread, this green was reached after a downhill tee shot from the Chambre d'Amour, which was significantly elelvated (see the topo marks on the contemporary sketch).  The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A, then the 13th went down to the beach and then #14 ("La Montee de las Falaise") back up to the cliiff on which most of the course resides.  I can see that green (of which we only have a few of the long side) being fronted by a hogsback, but I can't see the 12th, with its blind tee shot, up the cliff benefitting from what we know toeday as a "Biarritz" green.

I'm not sure I understand your description.  Using the numbers on the old map (circa 1893, I think) I agree the 11th played steeply down into the Chambre, but I don't know what you mean when you say "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A."   My understanding is that the 12th played along the beach, almost at sea level, toward the building near the beach in the chambre.  Here is a photo showing the land 12th played over, with the hole starting in the left hand side of the photo.  One can see a "hogback" or a roll in the land along the lines the hole played.   (This postcard is undated, and I am not sure if there was any course there at his point, but one can make out people near where the location of the 12th green must have been.)



As for my theory, I am not sure I've identified the actual culprit either, or that proper identification is even possible at this point.  It is just my best guess based mostly on two factors:
1.  CBM identified the hole as the 12th, so this seems a likely place to start.
2.  The layout map (which I believe is circa 1893) has contour lines on the "new" parts of the course, and the 12th hole looks like it has a hogback running up the center of the hole and ending about 30 yards short of the green, thus matching CBM's description.  And the photos I have seen of the Chambre seem to indicate the same hogback (see photo above and map excerpt below.)



Here are a few potential problems with my theory:
1.  From early on, they kept adding and adding and subtracting holes from the Chambre, so it is difficult to say for certain that this was No. 12 in early 1906 when CBM first saw the hole.  To make a short story long . . . originally there were four holes down there (including the 11th which played into the Chambre and the 14th ("Cliff") which played out) but at different times there seems to have been up to six holes down there, so the 9th played into the chambre and the 14th played out.   So I don't have total confidence that the 12th that CBM saw was the same as the 12th on the circa 1893 diagram.  That said, I think it was, based on a 1906 article which indicates that the hole right after the "Cliff" hole was the 15th.  Working backwards (with what I can make of the routing from photos) that would put the 12th in the same spot as on the map.  Essentially I think they added two holes in the middle of the four original Chambre holes, on playing up and and one back, right after the hole that played down into the Chambre.
2.  The 12th hole on the map was closer to 300 yards than 200 in the mid 1890's, and I don't know how long it was when CBM saw it.   This doesn't bother me too much because CBM was clear he was only taking an idea from the hole, and was not copying the entire hole, which he thought was pretty poor.  Also, when the holes were added, this hole may have been shortened.  Whatever the length, he could have borrowed the concept.
3.  I've never found a good photo of the green surrounds for this hole, and the ones I do have are inconclusive.  

As for your theory that it was actually the 11th hole, I considered that as well, but that theory has some problems, too.  
1.  I am pretty sure based on various articles and photos that in 1906 (when CBM was there) the hole you have identified was the 9th hole, not the 12th hole.
2.  I've seen a number of photos of that green and while it changed a lot, it is a stretch to find the features described by CBM in any of the photos.  Here are a few:







Nothing looks much like what I'd expect to see on the model for the Biarritz green concept.  

So while it still remains a mystery to me, I am sticking with the 12th (on the map) for the time being.  

[DMoriarty]

I wonder if David Moriarty and others could comment on the possiblity that the Biarritz holes Macdonald built might have been a combination of features: the drama of the tee shot at Chasm Hole at the Biarritz Club, and the Valley of Sin at St. Andrews.

I understand why the hole at the NLE Biarritz Club is so fascinating, but are we missing another hole that played a critical role in what Macdonald and Raynor built? Did Macdonald write about the Valley of Sin in connection with courses he designed? (Like the 17th at Merion. )

Bill,  It think that many of CBM's supposed copies were based on concepts from different holes, and this one is probably no different, and it could be that the Valley of Sin was an influence.  According to George, some of the early swales on Biarritz holes were referred to as Valleys of Sin, so this would seem to support that theory.  

On the other hand, the shortcoming of the theory (besides the one mentioned by Rich) is that both CBM and Whigham were quite clear that the inspiration for the hole concept was  No. 12 at Biarritz.   And they described No. 12 as having a hogback running up the middle of the hole, followed by a swale/ditch/valley, followed by a plateaued green.   So it seems pretty clear that this was at least their stated influence.

I am not aware of anything written by CBM or Whigham ever discussing the Valley of Sin.

As for the Chasm Hole also being an influence on the Biarritz concept (in addition to No. 12 at Biarritz) that could have been the case as time went on, but I don't think it was the case initially, for at least a couple of reasons:
1.  CBM and Whigham both described the hole concept and neither mentioned anything about a giant chasm being an element of the hole.  
2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  

So even though CBM liked to put some of his Biarritz holes over some dramatic element, I have trouble making the leap to the conclusion that this had much to do with emulating the Chasm at Biarritz.  

One thing to keep in mind about CBM is that he didn't want people to be able to skull their shots and still get on the green on par threes.  He discussed this with regard to the Eden and put his Eden greens beyond ponds or other trouble, and perhaps he did the same thing with Biarritz greens.  For him there was a definite difference between skillfully landing the ball short of the green and running it up, versus  just skulling it and getting a lucky roll.  

[Mark Saltzman]

2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  

David, thank you very much for your work on this thread, fascinating stuff.

Regarding the above statement, wouldn't you say (assuming it is original) that the cross-bunker on 8 at PRC could represent the Chasm?

[DMoriarty]

2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  

David, thank you very much for your work on this thread, fascinating stuff.

Regarding the above statement, wouldn't you say (assuming it is original) that the cross-bunker on 8 at PRC could represent the Chasm?

Maybe I am just too literal, but I can't quite wrap my arms around the notion that a (relatively) dinky top shot bunker was supposed to somehow represent a giant ocean chasm.  

I keep coming back to the the fact that both CBM and Whigham wrote about the Biarritz hole concept, and Whigham specifically wrote about the concept as it specifically applied at Piping Rock and neither ever mentioned the Chasm (that I know of at least.)  Had CBM or Whigham ever described the bunker as the "Chasm" bunker, or wrote about how it was an artistic representation of the Chasm, then I could see it. (Whigham was an art critic, after all.)  But they didn't.  Without some statement from them it seems a stretch.  

It seems more reasonable to me to view the bunker as a functional bunker designed to stop people from being able to tip their tee shots yet still succeed.  CBM's early courses seem to have been full of such bunkers, and I  doubt he had the Chasm in mind when he built them.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  

David, thank you very much for your work on this thread, fascinating stuff.

Regarding the above statement, wouldn't you say (assuming it is original) that the cross-bunker on 8 at PRC could represent the Chasm?

Mark,

Absolutely not.

# 8 is the "Road Hole"

On #  9, there's about a 20 foot drop from the back tee to the bottom of the fronting bunker, so in lose sense, you could say that might represent a chasm of sorts.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Excellent work, Bryan and David.  Many thanks.

IMO you have proved that the theory that CBM/Whigham's "Biarritz" was modeled on the "Chasm" hole is false.  


I would agree, except when you introduce Yale.

I am not yet sure, however, that you have identfied the actual "culprit."  To me, the various diagrams and google earth dowloads point more to what was the 11th at Biarritz, rather than the 12th.  On Bryan's post #45 you can see the old 11th green, which is now obviously part of the beach or even the sea.  From the contemporary reports on this thread, this green was reached after a downhill tee shot from the Chambre d'Amour, which was significantly elelvated (see the topo marks on the contemporary sketch).  

The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A, then the 13th went down to the beach and then #14 ("La Montee de las Falaise") back up to the cliiff on which most of the course resides.  

What seems to contradict your above statement, is the photo below.
Brian indicates that the tee marker indicates # 15, but, my eyes aren't good enough to discern if it's # 15 or # 13, but, it's definitely not # 12 or # 14.  What appears to create further doubt about the hole is that, are we CERTAIN that the golfer, picture below,  is hitting UP to the top of the cliff ?
Look at the yardage on the tee marker, it's ONLY 80 yards.
Maybe someone like Craig Disher could provide a photo interpretation of the distance from the tee to that flag, given the man standing to the right of what appears to be the flag.

The other thing that bothers me about the photo is what some are declaring as the hole.
Think of that hole, even at 80 yards, it's straight uphill, sharply uphill, with any missed shot resulting in an X.
Consider the equipment being played circa the date of the photo.
Could this be a mislabeled photo.

So many things about it appear wrong.
Stating it's # 14 when the tee marker says # 13 or # 15, the beyond penal nature of the hole, straight up a sheer cliff with any miss hit resulting in telephone numbers, with golfers playing with those I&B ?

 

I can see that green (of which we only have a few of the long side) being fronted by a hogsback, but I can't see the 12th, with its blind tee shot, up the cliff benefitting from what we know today as a "Biarritz" green.

Of course, unlike Pat Mucci, I might be wrong.....

It would appear that you are.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Go back to post #75 and read the beginning of the contemporaneous article.  Does this picture not fit that description to a tee?
 The "Cliff" hole is on the stick routing as #14 and is listed at 80 yards.  The box says 15 (which I can see by zooming in on the photo) but has the yardage as 80 yards, the same as the stick routing.  Perhaps the person who stencilled the box messed up on the hole number.  Maybe it was #15 when photographed but was #14 when the picture was printed and titled.  According to the article it was a challenging hole, but I bet it was nowhere near as challenging as the original "Chasm" hole at 225 yards.  I'm sure you could have handled it with a lofting-mashie and a gutta-percha ball.  But neither of us were there then so we can't comment on how it would play (or so you've told me many times).

Assume the man on top is 6' tall and the cliff is vertical, then the cliff is about 10 or 11 men tall. You can do the math.  

Still digging in the charcoal layer are you?  

  

[Niall C]

Patrick

With regards the photo in your last post, it would appear the little boy at the top of the cliff is possibly a caddy and probably giving the line of the hole, is he not ?

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Brian - not that it matters... the number on the box looks to be 13 to me, not 15.

[Michael Whitaker]

It seems to me, Brian, that the golfer in this photo his hitting his shot down below and not up onto the cliff, which would make sense if this were hole 13. The observer to the right also seems to be looking below to where the shot is traveling. According to the stick routing the 13th played down to the beach level then one played back up over the cliff on the level where the boy is standing.

[Michael Whitaker]

Also... I don't think the box says 80 yards... I think if you look very closely you will see it says 186 yards... which matches #13.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Go back to post #75 and read the beginning of the contemporaneous article.  Does this picture not fit that description to a tee?
 The "Cliff" hole is on the stick routing as #14 and is listed at 80 yards.  The box says 15 (which I can see by zooming in on the photo) but has the yardage as 80 yards, the same as the stick routing.  Perhaps the person who stencilled the box messed up on the hole number.  Maybe it was #15 when photographed but was #14 when the picture was printed and titled.  According to the article it was a challenging hole, but I bet it was nowhere near as challenging as the original "Chasm" hole at 225 yards.  I'm sure you could have handled it with a lofting-mashie and a gutta-percha ball.  But neither of us were there then so we can't comment on how it would play (or so you've told me many times).

Bryan,

How conveniently you dismiss undeniable physical evidence, the evidence presented in the photo.

The yardage marker is crystal clear, to your eyes at least, it's the 15th hole and it's 80 yards.

Now, you can engage in revisionist history or dismiss the physical evidence, but, I'm still not convinced that something isn't amiss.

Assume the man on top is 6' tall and the cliff is vertical, then the cliff is about 10 or 11 men tall. You can do the math.  

Bryan, look at that daunting cliff.  It demands immediate loft through a perfectly struck tee shot.
Tell me, tell us, how you would play that hole if you missed your tee shot and hit it into the cliff.
Tell us how you would play your next shot, and the next 200 shots you'd hit in an attempt to get to the green.

I'm telling you that something is amiss.

Still digging in the charcoal layer are you?  

We found that long ago, but, we only found it under the putting surfaces.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

With regards the photo in your last post, it would appear the little boy at the top of the cliff is possibly a caddy and probably giving the line of the hole, is he not ?

Niall,

Yes, yes, you're right, it is a caddy, and he's got his right hand raised because he's just thrown the golfer's golf bag over the cliff  

[Patrick_Mucci]

It seems to me, Brian, that the golfer in this photo his hitting his shot down below and not up onto the cliff, which would make sense if this were hole 13. The observer to the right also seems to be looking below to where the shot is traveling. According to the stick routing the 13th played down to the beach level then one played back up over the cliff on the level where the boy is standing.

Michael,

I agree, and that's what I was saying to Bryan Izatt and Rich Goodale, who was wrong again.

There was no way that fellow in the photo was playing up to the top of that cliff and there was no way that someone, as Bryan claimed, moved the tee marker to the wrong location or misstenciled the marker.

They have so much to learn and I have neither the time nor the patience, would you help them.

P.S.  Bryan, I see an optometrist in your future  

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike & Patrick,

Here is a larger version of the picture.  It looks like a 5 to me and not a 3, but each to their own.  It definitely looks like 80 yards.  And, the picture is titled "The Cliff".  If it was 13 heading to the beach then I'd expect to see the ocean in the distance, not the cliff.  Whether it is 13 or 15 on the box, most likely it means that the picture is from one of the iterations of the course where there were more or fewer holes down in the Chambre.




As to the 14 in the title, perhaps that is a slide number rather than the hole number.  Here is another picture that is labelled 14, but is in an entirely different direction and probably shows the 11th green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

If we've learned anything, it's that written articles suffer in terms of accuracy.

They can be informative and accurate, but, often they're dead wrong.

The photo you posted is a perfect example.

The caption says # 14, yet the yardage marker is clear that it's NOT # 14.

We have the difficult task of trying to decipher and filter through this information and misinformation and reach prudent conclusions.

But, let me ask you this.

How could you possible play the hole pictured, once you miss your tee shot ?

It would be impossible to hit any subsequent shot, safely up the cliff, to the green.

[DMoriarty]

I think I may have found the source of my confusion about Rich's post.  Rich wrote that the:  "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A . . . "

He seems to have gotten this from Tommy who posted the following image on the first page of this thread, and wrote, "The 12th played back up over the chambre d'amour and was supposedly the most prominent and feared hole at Biarritz."



Trouble is, the C d'A was the area down below the cliffs, not up above the cliffs, and I am pretty sure the hole pictured is actually the Cliff Hole, which is No. 14 on the map.

As for the photo with "13" or "15" on the box, I am not quite sure what to make of it.  On the one hand, it looks a lot like the cliff hole,   On the other hand, the tee for the 13th (on the map) is pretty close to the tee for the Cliff hole, so I guess it is conceivable that the photo is of people teeing off on the 13th, but the angle of the photo is aimed to capture the cliff hole.    That said, I I am leaning towards Bryan's explanation that this was just a different iteration when the Cliff hole was either the 13th or 15th, but I am not sure.  

Somewhere I have at least one other photo of the Cliff hole, and I will try to dig up when I get the chance.  

(Incidentally and for clarification's sake, Tommy also posted a photo he identified as the Chasm tee, but the hole in the photo is actually of a different hole at a different course where the ocean was on the golfer's left, not right.)

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