[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

I've seen a number of descriptions of the "Cliff" hole, but no diagrams.  It is on the stick routing as the 14th.  The following picture, posted on another thread probably portrays it best.  Odd that the hole is titled 14, but the tee box has a 15 on it.




Here is an article from 1902 that peripherally talks about the Cliff hole as they discuss backspin on the golf ball.  I thought the article was interesting given it was 1902.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

A few things to consider.

The photo below shows the llighthouse on the second gorge, provided that the hole hadn't been flipped.

If it hadn't been flipped, then it would appear that the back of the green extended all the way to the edge of the second gorge.

Sorry, I still don't get what you mean by flipped.  Do you mean relocated in 1897?  I believe the picture shows the green after the 1897 relocation and that the original 1889 tee was out on the point on the right edge of this picture

The reason that the compass points on the aerial are so important is that it would let us locate the actual putting surface with a high degree of certainty.

Do you mean if there were compass points on the photos that that would allow us to locate them on an aerial?  I agree, but we don't have compass points on the pictures.

The picture above is, I believe looking more or less W.  The following picture, probably pre-1897 relocation shows the original tee.  This view is from a little more inland that the one above and is probably looking WNW.  The 1897 relocated green would be in the foreground right side of this photo.




Here is my attempt to show you where I think the "green" picture above was taken from.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I think the photo was taken back further, near the road as it depicts the gorge, green and tee, along with the lighthouse.

The photo depicting the golfer teeing off, up the hill, next to an identifying tee box is interesting, especially given the date.

As to what I meant by angles, look at George's schematic and where the tee boxes migrated to.
With each migration, the angle of attack became more difficult when playing to a Biarritz green.

[Tony_Muldoon]

George Bahto indicates that the original tee was at 80' and that the green was at 50', making it more like Yale's 9th.

If so, then flipping it, such that the tee is lower than the green, puzzles me, unless the tee was moved further inland to a spot with equivalent elevation.

Jim, yes, you did allude to the 2nd gorge and thus deserve co-credit.

Will you two calm down, as my post 41 suggests, Tommy N's been saying this for years.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I don't think so.  If the picture was taken from more inland, near the road, you'd see more of the ocean in the gorge, more like the teeing picture.  The three lines I drew were based on the line to the lighthouse through the guy in white shirt putting; one straight up the middle of the picture that intersects the slope of the cliff down to the sea; and the third one along the line of the edge if the cliff in the foreground.  The camera had a wider field of view than those three points, but I thought they were good alignment points.  If you look closely at the "green" picture you'll see a white building down below and slightly left of the lighthouse.  That building exists today.  If the picture was taken from more inland that building would have been more in front of the lighthouse.

The photo of the cliff hole is undated as far as I know.  It is not related to the 1902 article below it.

With all respect to George, I think his sketch is erroneous.  The analysis in the last couple of pages show that the green was relocated in 1897, and the tee was relocated to the promontory across the chasm to the east.  George's sketch shows the green remaining in one place while only the tee moved.  I think that is incorrect.  George also shows the hole at 160 yards in 1897.  The contemporaneous reports say the hole was 90 - 100 yards in 1897.  With apologies to George, I have adjusted his sketch to show where the 1897 green was likely located.

With that I think the point about angles is moot in 1897.  Perhaps the tee was moved inland in the 1960's.

[DMoriarty]

1.  For what it is worth, I think some may be putting much too much reliance on George's artistic rendering of what he thought the hole might have looked like originally.  Unless George has been holding out on us, I think the drawing represents his best guess of what the hole might have looked like based on the information he had available at the time.

2. As I have said before, I believe George and others may be mistaken in connecting the "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz, with CBM's "Biarritz" hole.  CBM described the hole which inspired the Biarritz in a few places, but he never mentions a Chasm or "the Chasm."   In fact his physical description of the hole which inspired his Biarritz doesn't seem to fit the Chasm at all.    

3. If one looks at the map (which I believe to be from circa 1893, when the Dunn's expanded the course to 18 holes) one can see an erased tee or green above and out on the point from the current third tee.   My guess is that that this was approximately the location of the original tee, and that the tee shot played toward the large X, perhaps to one of the erased rectangles beyond the X.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I think you're right about the erroneous "connection"

Where was CBM's first "Biarritz" ?

By "Biarritz", I mean his first double plateaued green with a swale at the mid-point ?

Chicago ?
St Louis
Piping Rock ?

And, was that particular hole named "Biarritz" ?

Piping Rock's 9th hole does entail a carry, although not over a chasm.

I suspect, that the 9th at Yale may have been called Biarritz because of the chasm like carry, rather than the double plateaued, swaled green.

My theory is that the context of "Biarritz" transitioned from the carry over the chasm to the configuration of the green.
And, that carry evidenced itself at the golf course at Biarritz.

[Nigel Islam]

Pat, I think we established that Piping Rock was likely the first. Certainly from my understanding, Chicago did not come about until the Raynor renovation, and Yale would have been a little after that.

If , I am understanding Pat correctly I think he is saying that he suspects the "Biarritz" hole indicated a carry over a chasm, and that at some point the green with the swale came to be associated with the term "Biarritz" Likely, because Macdonald used that green on a chasm hole. Please feel free to correct me if I am missing the point.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick.  

Piping Rock was the first so-called "Biarritz" built by CBM and HJW, and it was described as based on a hole at Biarritz (see Whigham description below.)

I think perhaps the evolution was opposite your description.  CBM's original "Biarritz" concept was the long par three with a hogback then a 30 yard swale short of a plateaued green.  At some later point in time people got confused and thought the hole must have come from the "Chasm" hole which was the most famous hole at Biarritz.  Perhaps the "Chasm" concept got folded into the understanding at Yale or elsewhere.

Briefly on the history of the original concept . . .

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

No mention of the famous chasm --the description of the hole as "not very good" would seem an incongruous reference if he was referring to the famous Chasm.  While CBM referred to the 12th hole, at that time the Chasm hole at Biarritz was the 3rd hole and was only around 100 yards or less, and flipping the nines doesn't work because of quirks in the layout.  And I have never read any description of the famous Chasm Hole that mentioned a hogs-back or a swale, or the method of playing using the ground game.   So, as far as I can tell, the original Biarritz concept was based on a different hole at Biarritz, likely one down by the water in the Chambre d'Amore (the 12th on the map.)

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

Again no mention of the famous Chasm.  Rather, CBM described a "sharp hog back" in the middle of the course [hole] ending 30 yards short.  And the green is a plateau, with a large swale short of the green.

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

Again, nothing about a Chasm, and nothing indicating that they were referring to the Chasm Hole (which was quite famous and called "The Chasm") as opposed to a less noteworthy hole at Biarritz.

____________________________
Nigel,

I think you have Patrick's position accurately, but I think he has it slightly backwards.   The Biarritz (long par three, hogsback across middle, then a swale for 30 yards short of the green, then plateaued green) came first.  If the "chasm" element is indeed an element of the hole concept (which I doubt) it was added later.

[Nigel Islam]

Ok I want you guys to help me a little on this one. I think the original version of the chasm hole seems to be a very good hole (at least with 2013 equipment), but the later shortened version just seems horrendous to me. It was 90 yards, up the cliff and blind if I am reading all of this correctly?

[DMoriarty]

No.  It gets a little confusing, and I think you and others are confusing the Cliff Hole with the Chasm Hole, but they were two different famous holes.

Originally the course at Biarritz played entirely on cliffs set well above the ocean, and featured on hole famously called "the Chasm" which played from one cliff top to another over (you guessed it) a chasm.   In the mid-1890's the course was expanded to 18 holes using land West of the course and a section of land down below the cliffs at sea level called the Chambre d'Amore.  "The Cliff" Hole was the hole that played straight up a cliff to get out of the Chambre.

So, IMO, three different holes from Biarritz are being discussed here.   Two of them - the Chasm and the Cliff - were quite famous.  The third hole was not at all famous, but perhaps inspired CBM.  Again .  . .

1.  The famous "Chasm" which played over a "chasm" up above on cliffs set well above the ocean. First the hole played over one chasm, then it was changed to play over a shorter chasm, but still both were up on the cliffs set well above the ocean.  

2.  The famous "Cliff" which played from down at ocean level (in the Chambre d' Amore") straight up to the top of an ocean cliff.  You were essentially hitting a blind shot directly up a cliff.  

3.  The third was No. 12, which CBM said was not a very good hole but featured an original concept which eventually formed the basis for what became known as the Biarritz hole.  


On the map above, No. 3 was the Chasm, No. 14 was the Cliff, and (IMO) No. 12 was the hole which inspired CBM.

[Nigel Islam]

Ok then #14 could not have been considered a good hole then? Famous, yes. Good? A ninety yard blind shot up a cliff?

[DMoriarty]

I won't speculate beyond famous.  

At the very least it was the site of some good stories.

[Ally Mcintosh]

This has been a great thread instigated by Bryan with some good illustrations.... And now David has re-posted his findings from a different thread then it has everything in one place...

For me, David's conclusions always seemed to be the most sensible.... And I also like Bryan's conclusions on the approximate evolution of the Chasm hole... Closest we've come on both fronts to a definite answer says I...

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Here's where we disagree.

CBM's original "Biarritz" concept was the long par three with a hogback then a 30 yard swale short of a plateaued green.

The above description is exactly how the Biarritz green complex is configured.

For some time I always equated a "hogback" with a spine, typically found in CBM's greens, but, the "hogback" he's refering to is the huge front portion of the Biarritz, mowed to putting surface at Yale and others, and left as fairway on other Biarritz's.

He's describing the "first" plateau as the "hogback"

At some later point in time people got confused and thought the hole must have come from the "Chasm" hole which was the most famous hole at Biarritz.  

Perhaps the "Chasm" concept got folded into the understanding at Yale or elsewhere.

Both Piping Rock's and Yale's Biarritz play from elevated tees to a lower green.
At Yale, it's quite pronounced and over a chasm of sorts.

The question I would pose is: was their a green at the golf course at Biarritz that had the configuration described above.

Coincidence, rather than design, may be responsible for the name assigned to the double plateaued par 3 holes with a center swale.

[DMoriarty]

I agree that his description is of a Biarritz green complex and that the hogback is the first plateau.  Where we may disagree is with your theory "that the context of 'Biarritz' transitioned from the carry over the chasm to the configuration of the green."  I don't think the chasm had anything to do with CBM's original biarritz hole concept.

As for your question, it is a little hard to tell what holes existed at Biarritz at the time CBM visited. The only two commonly discussed  holes were the Chasm and the Cliff.   But CBM does mention that the hole in question was "No. 12" and the approach on No. 12 on the map above seems to somewhat fit the description in that the contour lines show a long hogback running up the center of the hole and ending about 30 yards short of the green.   I've never seen a good enough photo of the hole to confirm.

As for change in elevation, CBM and HJW didn't mention this as being a characteristic they were borrowing from the model at Biarritz.  Also,  I know George's drawing shows a substantial elevation change on from tee to green on the "Chasm" but I am not sure that there ever was such an elevation change.  I quickly checked the elevations on Google Earth, and don't see it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I agree that his description is of a Biarritz green complex and that the hogback is the first plateau.  Where we may disagree is with your theory "that the context of 'Biarritz' transitioned from the carry over the chasm to the configuration of the green."  I don't think the chasm had anything to do with CBM's original biarritz hole concept.

I don't either.

You're missing my point which is that others, not CBM, coined the label, by equating the carry over the chasm as evidenced at the Biarritz golf course, with the name "Biarritz"

CBM describes the green (hogback, plateau, etc. etc.) and I wonder if one of the holes at the Biarritz golf course had a similar green.

In other words, did the concept come from the configuration of a green at Biarritz, rather than the carry on a hole ?

As for your question, it is a little hard to tell what holes existed at Biarritz at the time CBM visited. The only two commonly discussed  holes were the Chasm and the Cliff.  

But CBM does mention that the hole in question was "No. 12" and the approach on No. 12 on the map above seems to somewhat fit the description in that the contour lines show a long hogback running up the center of the hole and ending about 30 yards short of the green.   I've never seen a good enough photo of the hole to confirm.

That's my theory, that another hole at Biarritz, with the "hogback" and "plateau" features in the green complex was the genesis of his design at Piping Rock and others, and that the creation of # 9 at Yale, redirected others who erroneously made the quantum leap of conceptualizing the hole as one requiring a carry over a chasm, rather than one with the configuration cited above.

As for change in elevation, CBM and HJW didn't mention this as being a characteristic they were borrowing from the model at Biarritz.  Also,  I know George's drawing shows a substantial elevation change on from tee to green on the "Chasm" but I am not sure that there ever was such an elevation change.  I quickly checked the elevations on Google Earth, and don't see it.

I did that last night as well, but, for the hole to work, the tee and green would have to be close to equal with an elevated tee the prefered arrangement.

While one can conceive of playing to an uphill green on a Redan, I don't think it would work with a Biarritz, where part of the joy is seeing the ball reappear on the back plateau.

[Nigel Islam]

Pat the biarritz at St Louis which is an early one (1914) is indeed substantially uphill. It is also not called biarritz. I agree it doesn't work all that well conceptually.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

1.  For what it is worth, I think some may be putting much too much reliance on George's artistic rendering of what he thought the hole might have looked like originally.  Unless George has been holding out on us, I think the drawing represents his best guess of what the hole might have looked like based on the information he had available at the time.

2. As I have said before, I believe George and others may be mistaken in connecting the "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz, with CBM's "Biarritz" hole.  CBM described the hole which inspired the Biarritz in a few places, but he never mentions a Chasm or "the Chasm."   In fact his physical description of the hole which inspired his Biarritz doesn't seem to fit the Chasm at all.    

3. If one looks at the map (which I believe to be from circa 1893, when the Dunn's expanded the course to 18 holes) one can see an erased tee or green above and out on the point from the current third tee.   My guess is that that this was approximately the location of the original tee, and that the tee shot played toward the large X, perhaps to one of the erased rectangles beyond the X.

Agreed on point 1.

Agreed on point 2, unless someone turns up a picture or a description of the Chasm hole showing a humpback, swale and plateau green.  It seems unlikely to me for the simple reason that the hole was only 100 yards when CBM got there - little room for all those features.

Agreed on point 3.  That matches up to the way I drew up the two holes above.

Your proposition that the 12th was the model for the CBM Biarritz hole seems plausible to me.  It would be nice to find some confirmatory description or picture of the hole.  This sort of reminds me of the Leven hole where the feature is both pretty nondescript and on on a pretty nondescript hole.  It always struck me as a bit strange that CBM would have picked that feature out of all the features he saw on his tour. Perhaps the same applies to the Biarritz concept.  Maybe it was pretty nondescript for most eyes at the time and consequently nobody but CBM thought much of it

As a passing thought, the routing map places the 12th on what is now the beach, so no hog's back or swale today.  In the 1890's it looks like the beach was 50 to 100 yards further away from the cliff.  From the routing it looks like there might have been a seawall just to the left of the 12th.  There appears to have been a fair bit of coastal erosion over the last century taking away whatever topogharphy was there (not to mention they built a hotel).

BTW, is the Chambre d'Amore the Italian version of the Chambre d'Amour?  

[Bryan Izatt]

Pat and Nigel,

Remember that CBM took bits and pieces of holes to create his templates.  He may have applied the hog's back, swale and plateau green concepts on a downhill hole or an uphill hole depending on what the site gave him.  Playing uphill would work in the sense of giving you more roll out on landing since the angle of incidence would be less.  Pat would be disappointed because he couldn't watch it roll out.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's another Hutchinson article from a compendium of articles published in 1898.  It must have been written before 1897 because Willie Dunn was still around.  It doesn't answer the "Biarritz" question, but it's an interesting read.  The 2nd sounds like a weird hole, by today's standards.  I'm not sure what to make of the comments on the Chasm hole.

[DMoriarty]

You're missing my point which is that others, not CBM, coined the label, by equating the carry over the chasm as evidenced at the Biarritz golf course, with the name "Biarritz"

In June of 1906 CBM referred to the hole concept as being based on No. 12 at Biarritz, then again wrote much the same thing later in 1906 and 1907, and in 1913 when describing Piping Rock, Whigham specifically referred to the hole as as "a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards . . .."   So I think it pretty safe to say that CBM and Whigham coined the label "Biarritz" for this type of hole.    I think with Yale and other courses some must have mistakenly gotten the idea that the label "Biarritz" automatically referred to the Chasm Hole since it was by far the most famous.

Come to think of it, I am not sure who first connected the Chasm hole to the Biarritz hole.  For all I know it might have been a relatively modern notion to connect the two.  As I have said I don't think it was CBM or HJW who ever connected the two.

[DMoriarty]

Your proposition that the 12th was the model for the CBM Biarritz hole seems plausible to me.  It would be nice to find some confirmatory description or picture of the hole.  This sort of reminds me of the Leven hole where the feature is both pretty nondescript and on on a pretty nondescript hole.  It always struck me as a bit strange that CBM would have picked that feature out of all the features he saw on his tour. Perhaps the same applies to the Biarritz concept.  Maybe it was pretty nondescript for most eyes at the time and consequently nobody but CBM thought much of it

Some years back I spent some time trying to find the green in various photos and post cards but with no real luck.   Whichever green it was, it is strange that CBM focused on and held onto this particular feature above all else he saw.   Given his commitment to presenting complete variety in hole lengths, maybe he was really trying to focus on a concept that might work for shots just beyond the reach of a driver, and this particular concept fit the bill.    Or maybe he had the idea on his own and was just hoping to find a hole to justify it and had to go all the way to a "not good" hole at Biarritz to do it.  

As a passing thought, the routing map places the 12th on what is now the beach, so no hog's back or swale today.  In the 1890's it looks like the beach was 50 to 100 yards further away from the cliff.  From the routing it looks like there might have been a seawall just to the left of the 12th.  There appears to have been a fair bit of coastal erosion over the last century taking away whatever topogharphy was there (not to mention they built a hotel).

There must have been some sort of protection there for that building down there to have survived for any time at all.
________________________________________________

As for the Pilgrim Abroad excerpt, I am not too sure what to make of it either.  There were a series of Hutchinson articles/chapters over the years all with essentially the same "Chasm" description recycled over and over again, so they aren't too useful for dating purposes.  This one though is interesting in that Hutchinson discussed the hole in past tense, as if it no longer existed.

I did find an early reference to the hole from 1890 which described the carry over the cliffs as 80 yards, with the green another 120 yards beyond that.  I'd be surprised if the hole was ever longer than this 200 yards.  (I am not sure, but the 220 figure seems to have come from Dunn who was writing 40 plus yards later, and who had a number of facts wrong.)

[Jim Sherma]

Great thread. Brian and David - thank you for your contributions in making this conversation happen at this high of a level.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

As you know, Willie Dunn moved to America and ended up at Ardsley Park Casino and built a course there that NLE in its original form.  I found this 1896 article that describes the original 1896 9 hole course.  The stick routing shows a 250 yard hole over a "gulch" along the banks of the Hudson.  The text describes the hole and says it is aptly named "The Chasm".  Perhaps Dunn himself was first to import the hole concept.  Interesting that they call it Chasm and not Biarritz.

The 250 yards is probably spurious given some of the other holes are 600 yards and 850 yards.  An 1899 stick routing shows the hole at 122 yards over a ravine.  Seems more reasonable that it was 122 yards.

Looks like a lot of plateau greens on the back nine (scroll right).  Do you see any that look like they might have been a Biarritz?

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