[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Then why did CBM specifically reference a hole by number (the 12th) when describing the influences for the Biarritz template, including a description of the landforms in front of its green?  Does that not suggest he was referencing a hole that existed and more importantly was part of the course when he visited?

At all times from the first use of the Chambre up until well after CBM's visit, the 12th hole was located down below the cliffs.  The Chasm Hole was never the 12th hole of the course.

Colt and Pine Valley is another story, and I'd like to have more information on when he visited Biarritz and what he saw before commenting on your speculation on that matter.

Sven

[Alex Miller]

Pat:

Then why did CBM specifically reference a hole by number (the 12th) when describing the influences for the Biarritz template, including a description of the landforms in front of its green?  Does that not suggest he was referencing a hole that existed and more importantly was part of the course when he visited?

At all times from the first use of the Chambre up until well after CBM's visit, the 12th hole was located down below the cliffs.  The Chasm Hole was never the 12th hole of the course.

Colt and Pine Valley is another story, and I'd like to have more information on when he visited Biarritz and what he saw before commenting on your speculation on that matter.

Sven

Forgive my intrusion into a very fine thread!

Given the ambiguity of hole #'s, I have to share a thought I had when looking at this photo:



The dune formations in the chamber seem to be oriented parallel to the coast. As we all know, the depression in the hole we currently know as a Biarritz is oriented perpendicular to the line of play. In looking at this photo, the 11th, which plays toward the coast, would appear to have the best opportunity to have green contours that resemble the CBM "Biarritz" due to the direction of play. Is it possible that this is a hole we should look at more closely? There would appear to be some sort of a hogsback formation short of the green there as well.

Kudos on the fantastic discussion Sven, Patrick, Bryan, David, and others!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Then why did CBM specifically reference a hole by number (the 12th) when describing the influences for the Biarritz template, including a description of the landforms in front of its green?  

Sven,

You're not reading my replies and you're not reading them in conjunction with what CBM wrote.

Does that not suggest he was referencing a hole that existed and more importantly was part of the course when he visited?

Reread my replies

At all times from the first use of the Chambre up until well after CBM's visit, the 12th hole was located down below the cliffs. 

We know that

The Chasm Hole was never the 12th hole of the course.

We know that, and, I never said it was.

Colt and Pine Valley is another story, and I'd like to have more information on when he visited Biarritz and what he saw before commenting on your speculation on that matter.


Unfortunately, I don't think that a diary/log exists for Colt, like the one available to MacKenzie.

If he visted Biarritz, he would see everything at Biarritz, unless you think that certain areas were "off limits"

[DMoriarty]

Sven,

I was thinking something similar to your second diagram, although I may have a few reservations  about that setup for 1906.   I'll have to wait and get into them later as I don't have time to go back and dig into photos right now.
___________________________________________________________

Patrick,  

CBM may have looked at the old hole location, although it sounds like the best place to see it may have been from the "chambres" of the maisons reportedly built on the locations of the tee side and green side.   He doesn't seem to have said anything about the Chasm as an influence, so it is hard to support the theory.  

I just wonder if the idea of playing over a chasm or ditch or lake or whatever was unique enough to require specific inspiration. In 1906 that wasn't really a unique concept, was it?  Dunn seems to have been quite fond of such holes, as is perhaps evidenced by Ardsley discussed above.  And weren't there other holes in Great Britain (seen by CBM) which featured carries over dramatic features (the Pit at North Berwick?)
_________________________________________________

Alex,  what you are suggesting is possible, but I get the impression that in CBM's/Whigham's early version of the hole the hogback was supposed to run up the middle hole so that less than perfect balls would be deflected to one side or another. (There are descriptions saying as much.)   So a perfect ball would essentially have to be right up the middle, with a drop off on both sides.  (CBM utilized this concept on a few drives at NGLA including "Hogback" and the on the drive on the Punchbowl.)

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

My apologies, I did misread the train of comments leading up to your last post, and I think we are in agreement with respect to the central principal that CBM took away from Biarritz with respect to his Biarritz template, namely the landforms leading up to the green.  

There is credence to the idea that CBM would have wanted to see where the Chasm Hole used to play, even though it was covered by housing when he visited.  And it is possible that it did influence his designs in the future, including possibly the crossing of the lake at Yale.  However, like David, I don't think the idea rises beyond the level of speculation at this point.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

I, too, have some questions, but for the most part I'm fairly convinced that if the 9th hole was the number for the hole entering the Chambre, the 12th would have been the hole I've marked as such on the 2nd version of the map and photo.  There are no other routings I can come up with leading up to the 12th hole that make sense, and no photo evidence I've seen that contradicts this theory.

Any questions I do have are related to what I've been calling the new version of the Cliff Hole, but they all affect the routing after the 12th.  

Happy to walk through any photo evidence or other theories when you have the chance.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

I had asked Bryan to overlay this schematic over the google earth image of the 5th at PV.

He hasn't had the inclination or time to do so, so perhaps you or David have the ability to do so.

But, if I modified this schematic, just slightly, and I asked everyone what hole this was, I think the great majority would claim # 5 at Pine Valley.

The resemblance is too mirror like to be strictly coincidence.

Even if Colt never visited Biarritz, it would be hard to imagine that he didn't come into contact with photos, drawings, paintings or personal accounts of the hole.

We have Ross's travel log and MacKenzie's travel log, it would be nice to have Colt's travel log.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

There's another way to look at it.

Perhaps the 5th at Pine Valley (and hence Colt) influenced how George Bahto drew that image of the Chasm Hole.  

Let's stick to the photos, contemporaneous accounts and routing maps.  The rest is latter day interpretation, and most likely flawed at that.

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Irrespective of the George's schematic's accuracy, the aerials/topos of the two sites bear a remarkable resemblance.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

That's great, but if you don't mind can we move any Colt related commentary over to the thread you started on that subject. 

Part of the reason I got involved in this thread was to try to get it back on point.

Sven

[Bryan Izatt]

Here is another golf picture from 1909.  Sadly not very good quality.  The homes on the horizon, which would be near, but probably right of the Chasm hole certainly don't look jerry built as Hutchinson wrote.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bryan:

Here's a better version of that image.  The housing does look well built.



And here's an image of the 12th green that David posted back in 2011.  He noted the photo was from 1904.  The location of the cliff line in the back ground matches up with the area that we have been identifying for the old version of the Cliff Hole.  I believe this is the hole I've noted as the 12th on the marked photo that follows.  The "area of interest" marked on that photo would be behind the golfers in David's image.

[Bryan Izatt]

A view from the lighthouse looking over the Chambre d'Amour.  It's date stamped 1913.  I cannot see the jerry built houses that Hutchinson referred to on the site of the chasm hole.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bryan:

Hutchinson's statement was printed in 1903.  My guess is that some shoddily built houses were present for a short while, and then may have been torn down at a later date to make room for the larger mansions that started to show up on the cliff top.  Or perhaps the owners of those mansions decided to clear the clutter out of their back yards.

Here's another photo (undated) showing a mix of types of housing.

[DMoriarty]

I, too, have some questions, but for the most part I'm fairly convinced that if the 9th hole was the number for the hole entering the Chambre, the 12th would have been the hole I've marked as such on the 2nd version of the map and photo.  There are no other routings I can come up with leading up to the 12th hole that make sense, and no photo evidence I've seen that contradicts this theory.

As I said, I was thinking of something similar to your scheme, but had some issues.   I don't think there is anything necessarily contradicting the theory, it is more just that we don't have enough information to adequately support it.   I am still of the opinion that about all we can say with any degree of certainty is that the CBM "No. 12" hole in question was almost definitely not the "Chasm Hole," was probably located in the bottom of the Chambre d'Amour, and that it possibly utilized one of those big rolls or hogbacks visible in the photos. 

Here are a few reasons why I am hesitant to get solidly behind this theory or any theory specifically identifying the location:

1.  The photo supposedly of the 12th green.  Looking at the background, then this photo ought to be looking from the green back toward the tee.  Yet I don't see anything resembling a tee or a hogback between the tee and green.   It could just be the angle or the poor quality, but I am not so sure that this photo supports the theory, except that it is reasonable that the green location could be about correct but it is really difficult to tell. Also, even if the location is correct it could be playing from the opposite direction.    (When I first saw this photo my assumption was it was taken from the front of the green, which would be a more conventional way to photograph a green.)

2.  I don't have a good sense of the dates of the various photos showing various man made features (greens and tees) or that the features were in existence at the time CBM was there.    There were so many changes down there that I am not sure it is reasonable to assume that a feature we see in any of the photos was actually there in 1906.   And there are features (greens and tees) in the photos on which you are relying that are not taken into account in the theory.   For examples, in a few of the photos a green (or something) is visible across the road from where you have the 12th tee, and the location where you have the 12th tee was a green as well.  And then there is the tee on the other side of the green where you have the 12th tee, and I think may have been the cliff hole tee.  And some feature right in front of the house.   Even the photo of the ladies teeing off (where they are dressed formally) shows part of a manmade bunker to there left of the teebox, suggesting another hole that we haven't really identified.  In short, there seems to have been quite a lot going on in terms of different routings, and I wonder if we aren't picking and choosing a bit too much.

3.  I've provided some descriptions for Golf Illustrated (which I will try to provide in full) but honestly I don't have a strong sense of confidence in any of the course descriptions from about 1895 to about 1908.    The reason is I think about every description was written by Hutchinson, yet while Hutchinson was there in the winter of 1893-1894, he was apparently not there again until either 1908 or 1909 (I don't remember which one offhand.)  And this alone makes me somewhat wary of relying on his descriptions of specific hole numbers.    At some point around 1908 or 1909 the descriptions change from No. 9 playing down into the Chambre to No. 8 playing down into the Chambre, and I don't know if this was an actual change or whether the numbers were wrong on the previous descriptions.  A shift in one hole makes a big difference when it comes to placing the No. 12 hole.

It'd be nice if we could narrow down the location of the Cliff tee, but I am not sure we can.  In at least one of the photos it looks like they might be playing over a road, which would suggest the tee was over by what you have as the 11th green, but I cannot be certain.

[DMoriarty]

Rough Copies of Golf Illustrated pages from 1904, 1906, 1908, and 1909.  These I copied off the internet some time ago, and was hoping to get to a LA84 library to get better copies, but don't know when I will get around to it.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Still enjoying this thread!  How sweet to see what benefits collaboration and people prepared to admit that it is not always clear what happened can bring.


A word on the architects.

Willie Dunn Jrn  was at Westward Ho in 1886 then according ot Cornish and Whitten laid out Chingford, London borders with Essex(1888) before heading to Biarritz.  I understand he was the offical Greenkeepr/Professional.   He  left to go to Shinnecock circa 1895 .


 From the recent  Tantallon Club and the West Links  (North Berwick) history, in 1889 Tom Dunn was dismissed from his his job as superintendent at North Berwick as he had apparently decided to join his brother Willie(Jr) at Biarritz. 


Cornish and Whitten allocate the brothers equal credits for the Biarrittz changes.

Tom “was the most prolific course designer of his day” and they call him the first designer to work on inland courses. His work included respected courses like Broadstone and Deal (9holes 1892). They have him at Biaritz in 1888(possible as he had sorely tried the North Berwick Clubs prior to leaving but most likely incorrect) and then other English courses from 1890.

[DMoriarty]

Tony,

If I recall various readings and past threads correctly, I think that it was Tom Dunn who laid out the original 9 holes at Biarritz in 1888 or 1889, then he was joined by Willie Jr. a few years later to expand the course to 18 holes (and eventually into the Chambre.)  Here is a link providing a brief history on the various Dunns and although a few of the dates are perhaps a bit off it seems to be accurate.

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/dunn.html

Also, according to a number of various newspaper articles, Dunn arrived at Shinnecock in the spring of 1893, and reportedly lengthened the course before the 1893 season.  (The course as laid out by William Davis had originally been 9 holes, but was reportedly 12 holes beginning in the summer 1893.)  He expanded the course to 18 holes a few years later.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46842.0.html

[Tony_Muldoon]

David  the same author Douglas Seaton wrtoe the new boook published last year and the website is older.


On checking the book further, Tom had been 'superintendent' at North Berwick twice and at one point employed Willie there.  Tom mised the Spring meeting in 1889 as it was "reported he was on a sojorn to Biarritz".  He said he had been ill and extended his stay beyond the week a Doctor had advised. "The reality was that Tom Dunn had joined his brother Willie Dunn in in France where they laid out the Le Phare course".  

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Tony.

I've read the account of Tom D missing the 1889 spring meeting, etc.  And that Tom and Willie were hired by Biarritz in the spring of 1889, but I am pretty sure there was already a course there at that time.  I guess my question is who designed the original course that opened in 1888?  I thought that it was Tom Dunn who had quickly laid out the course while on vacation, or something, and then he returned the next year and lost his job at Biarritz.  

Putting Tom there in 1888 is very sketchy, and I've never seen anything that put Willie Dunn there before 1889.  It could be that he was there, but I do recall reading one article that suggested Tom was there a year previous to Willie.   Not important, I guess.

From your quote from Mr. Seaton, it doesn't seem that Willie was necessarily there first, although I guess you could read it that way.  The way to reads to me is that Mr. Seaton is suggesting they laid out the original course together, but I am pretty sure there was already a course there in the spring of 1889.  I think I have seen results of competitions from the prior year.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Given that the Dunns were from North Berwick which itself was christened the Biarritz of the North, remind me again - we definitely ruled out the 16th green at NB as any form of inspiration, didn't we?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Given that the Dunns were from North Berwick which itself was christened the Biarritz of the North, remind me again - we definitely ruled out the 16th green at NB as any form of inspiration, didn't we?

Ally

IN the book he states the 16th was created following  the West Links being extended in 1877, necesitating draining the area around the Marine Hotel.  "The 16th green was raised and later Tom Dunn extended the green with its unique deep swale bisecting the middle." He then says this 3 level green was used on several greens at Biarritz.  Howevr he offers no evidence to support this and I've never found a reference to the extraordinary green before the 1960's, but the Oldest members say it hasn't changed since they played there in the youth.  I hope to play a round with Mr Seaton.  Circumstantially Dunn was very busy and yet that 16th green still seems unique to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Photos of the 12th green will reveal very little.

The Biarritz "concept" did not have it's genesis in the green, but rather, the "hogback" fronting the green, in combination with the green.

CBM combined these features to form the Biarritz concept in the U.S.as evidenced at Piping Rock and other courses.

I suspect that CBM "compressed the features he found at Biarritz into one compact feature that formed the basis for ONLY his par 3 holes, so that he could dictate the angle of attack.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  I realize the actual green wouldn't tell us much, but if the photo is in question is from the back of the green looking back toward the tee, then we might expect to see the swale and hogback feature and maybe even the tee.  Nothing like these is visible in the photo in question, which makes me question the positioning of the hole in the latest schematic.

_____________________________________________________

There has been quite a bit of discussion over the years about when exactly the two plateau formation became the 16th green at North Berwick.  I think at some point only the first plateau was green, and some of the discussion has been about whether CBM would have seen the hole before or after the change.   I think the general consensus was that the change was in the mid 1890's but I really don't know. Tony's post suggest even earlier, but for some reason I think Rich or someone argued it wasn't changed until around 1908 or 1909, but that is off of my sometimes faulty memory.  Here is one thread discussing issue:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50245

Also, when you ask about whether the hole was an "inspiration," do you mean inspiration for CBM in America, or Dunn in North Berwick, or both?  I don't think the 16th was CBM's original inspiration for his Biarritz concept simply because he told us his inspiration was No. 12 at Biarritz.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the CBM was inspired by the 16th at North Berwick for certain of his early non-Biarritz greens. The original Biarritz concept was not a green concept, it was rather a hole concept, and the swale was originally before the green.  But CBM did built least one green with a swale running through the green on a longer hole at Sleepy Hollow.  Sleepy Hollow also had a Biarritz with a very small swale fronting the green. (The original green at Merion's second also had a swale across the middle of the green, and was compared to the similar hole at Sleepy Hollow.)   At some point the two concepts may have come together into the single concept.  

But it is impossible for me to credit CBM's inspiration to some other course (or Hole) with both he and Whigham both identify the Biarritz hole (the 12th according to CBM) as the inspirational hole.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

David, I was referring more to whether 16 at NB might have been in Dunn's mind when the Biarritz hole that inspired CBM was finally designed / built

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