[Dale_McCallon]

Pine Valley opened today?  Under the exact same set of circumstances--very exclusive, built by one seemingly brilliant mind with collaboration of many other "experts" in field.

Would it still get the acclaim it does today?  I'm not arguing the brilliance of Pine Valley--I've never seen the place.  

Just wondering if the raters would obviously see that this is the best course in the world.  Would any magazine be BOLD enough to call a brand new course the best in world?

[rjsimper]

Having not played it, and never even seen the course up close, I am unable to comment on it's merit as a golf course.  However, it's clear that, to varying degrees, part of the influence on the elite courses in the world of ratings is legend, tradition, folklore, and history, and no course, no matter how perfect, can replicate that on opening day.

[PThomas]

Dale:  that is a great question

I haven't been there either, so I hope those that have will chime in

[Matt MacIver]

This is not exactly apples-to-apples, but newly opened Sand Hills is getting lots of kudos, here and elsewhere.  

[Andy Hughes]

Dale, this same type of question has been asked before of courses like Pinehurst #2 (consensus was it would not get near the acclaim that it does).

Kinda neat to think if Pine Valley opened today, it would be described as Crump's faithful tribute Fazio's Pine Barrens course  

[Jordan Wall]

Same thing can be said for the Bandon courses

They are pretty new and getting about the same hype as SH

Heres a question, if PV were built today like you said, and just opened as public, would you mean with how it was built long ago with smaller amounts of trees and more wide open or with all the trees on the course as it is today?  I wonder what the raters would say about PV being a more open course, or if opinions would even change at all.  Being raters, who knows what they would say.

[jeffwarne]

No chance it would be ranked #1 right away.
tradition may not be an official category anymore,but it's still a category in everyone's minds.
raters and rankers wouldn't do it,although they did get shadow creek up pretty high.
This is not an opinion on Pine Valley,but rather my opinion on what would happen.

On this site,popular acceptance would depend on who the architect was.  
As far as being a business success,it would also depend on who the architect was (a completely different set of architects from the above comment , although that is thankfully and rapidly changing) It's relative proximity to major population centers might allow it to flourish on its' own merits under a no name architect. I mean heck,it did the first time.
It would also be a tough sell as a new course because of the enormous amount of great courses in the metro New York/Philly area. No doubt the spin bashers would have a go at it.
In time it would take its' place though as far as rankings and business success.

[Brad Tufts]

I would only think that the lack of trees and the wide open feel would only help PV's status if it was new.  It wouldn't be the traditional american parkland course so many formerly wide open classic designs have become.

[mike_malone]

 Having read Hunter's "The Links " and now into "The Spirit of St. Andrews " I realize the "gang"  that influenced opinion about courses then is very different than now. It seemed that they went out of their way to visit new ventures like Pine Valley.

    It also seems that the ambitiousness of the Pine Valley project stood out more then by comparison to other projects than anything today.  Now there seems to be more competition for even the title of the best new course for the year.


     I would be interested in TEPaul's take on the difference between then and now as to the Philadelphia golf royalty  and its endorsement of the Pine Valley project and the hype it generated then compared to the influence or even existence of such a royalty today. There have been recent efforts like Stonewall that were put together by the golfing elite ,but it didn't have near the impact outside of this elite that Pine Valley had.

      One even wonders today if the location  next to an amusement park and near a modest community would affect people's thinking.


   Certainly today it seems that you need to employ a select group of architects before you get recognized.

    It goes way beyond the actual greatness of the course.

[JESII]

Pine Valley opened today?  Under the exact same set of circumstances--very exclusive, built by one seemingly brilliant mind with collaboration of many other "experts" in field.

Would it still get the acclaim it does today?  I'm not arguing the brilliance of Pine Valley--I've never seen the place.  

Just wondering if the raters would obviously see that this is the best course in the world.  Would any magazine be BOLD enough to call a brand new course the best in world?

I think there is a fair way to hypothetically replicate the scenarios that evolved into Pine Valley in the 1910's and 20's.

George Crump was a very well respected businessman, golfer and member of society. He had influential friends and contacts throughout the Philadelphia - Boston corridor.
Who fits that bill today?
Start with that person, and have him gather investment money from many of those contacts with the goal of creating the worlds greatest golf course.
Who are the architects of today that draw the same respect and recognition as those that contributed back in the building stage of PV?
Have them all check their egos in the name of collaboration and provide insight wherever the founder asks.

I do not personally know any of the founders of Sand Hills, Bandon Resort, Sebonack or any other 'modern' golf course that might fit the above criteria. Each of the three I listed have some combination of, what I see as, the key ingredients to developing a course that gains instant recognition as the best in the world. Connecting all the dots just might do it.

[JESII]

Shivas,

Copycatting what?

As much as we hear courses market themselves as similar to Pine Valley, I have still never seen anything like it. WW Pine Barrens does not even come close, for what it's worth.

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