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Chris_Clouser

The Doak Scale
« on: November 27, 2002, 05:51:41 AM »
Since this is so often referred to in this DG, I was wondering if anyone could post what the Doak Scale actually entails for those of us who don't own a copy of the Confidential Guide and for the people who aren't familiar with it.

Can anyone help with this?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2002, 08:04:52 AM »

Post no longer available....

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

JakaB

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2002, 10:02:36 AM »
Here we go again...basically stealing money from Tom Doak by printing on the internet valuable information that could easily be obtained by simply purchasing the book.  Cheating at copyright laws is alot like cheating at golf....everybody does it and as soon as you call someone on the carpet...the accuser becomes the asshole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SteveC

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2002, 10:47:28 AM »
I actually inquired of Tom as to where I could purchase the Confidential Guide. It is out of print right now. Anyone know if there are copies stockpiled somewhere? I need a few.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2002, 11:18:01 AM »
JakaB -

Having someone tell me the Doak scale will not prevent me from purchasing the book (X-mas list item).  

If the book is out of print (Amazon says it is usually 2-3 days), if I buy a "used" copy, I wouldn't be putting any money in Mr. Doak's pocket anyway, so it is the publishers decision not to run another printing that is in fact, limiting the wealthyness of Mr. Doak's pocket ...

Knowing the Doak scale will help me continue (?) to provide delightful insight and opinions on this website ... (yes, the door is open for criticism)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2002, 11:21:09 AM »
Nevermind jakab, he is just looking for a rise outta ya!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2002, 11:42:44 AM »
eBay has them quite often, sometimes they go for less then $10.00
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2002, 11:48:18 AM »
buy it.  A superb one volume guide to the process of golf couse architecture.  Not as much technical info as some other moderns (e.g. Hurdzan) but far better than all the moderns (imho) at integrating philosophy with practical issues.  Fun to read along with some of the classics such as Thomas, Hunter, Simpson & Wethered
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2002, 01:02:07 PM »

Barney,

    What I really want to know is do you think it was biased?   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaS

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2002, 02:09:42 PM »
From what I have seen on this website, Mr. Doak loves the attention he gets when someone discusses his "scale".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2002, 02:10:38 PM »
For those of you who want the book and don't have the patience for the eventual free exposure that may be duped from people on this site....Amazon has 6 used copies for sale.

I don't agree that just because a book is out of print the copyright laws become moot....Sure maybe you're not stealing from Tom Doak anymore but how about the people who had the foresight to either buy the book when it was in print or get a free signed copy because they are related to a friend of the author.   What about their rights as collectors...why should the information they have in their collections be part of the public domain just because its a little more difficult to aquire.  Libraries were built to protect the poor who may not have large caches of books and copyright laws were inacted to protect the rights of creators of intellectual property and those brave enough to invest in the distribution network that brings information to those who choose to buy it.   While most say if a man cheats on the golf course he cheats at life...I would propose it is far more likely that a man who cheats in life will cheat at golf.

The inside cover of The Confidential Guide reads...No part of this book may be reproduced in any manner without the express written consent of the publisher, except in the case of brief excerpts in critical reviews and articles.

I don't think Chris met this requirement in his request.






« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2002, 02:30:21 PM »
Be not led into the valley of temptation of quantifying golf course quality with numbers.  Though it is a bold book and worth owning, the number rating crutch is not valuable in any way.  The books power is not in the ratings by numbers but the descriptions, sometimes glowing, sometimes scathing, by the author.  It is a book that crossed over from the "Best 100 Golf Courses in the World" bootlicking crap, in that he actually says unfavorable things and tells you why.  (Was Tim Weiman his editor?)  It should be purchased and read for its content as Rough Meditations by Brad Klein should be,  as they are both iconoclastic in nature.    

  Like emoticons, the numbers lessen our effort in presenting a better feel for topics by diminishing the  attention put on the timbre or feel or power of the word.  

  Bernard Darwin dinna use numbers.  James Finegan nay uses 'em.  

 IMNSHO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2002, 02:31:00 PM »

Every once in a while Barney makes a good point. I have deleted my posting of the scales and humbly apologize to Mr. Doak and anyone else who may have been offended.


It is an excellent book and a must for any architecture fan.

Maybe Mr. Doak will publish the scale on his website for people to see.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2002, 03:02:45 PM »
Thank you Craig...If Chris Clouser would be so kind to join the Contributors to this site...I...in the spirit of the Holiday Season would pledge $10.00 to go towards the purchase of a used copy of The Confidential Guide so he might experience the joy of ownership.  The quicker we get copies into the hands of renowned collectors such as ourselves the more valuable they will become....thanks again Craig.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Tim Weiman

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2002, 03:31:48 PM »
Slag:

I would be very happy to help Tom in any way I could, but, no, I did not serve as his editor for the Confidential Guide. My only connection to the book is to discourage Tom from doing an update any time soon.

It's a landmark book, but an update before 2020 would be most unwise, in my view. No matter how many people pressure him, I hope Tom resists.

Chris Clouser:

I don't think Tom would mind me saying that the scale is a measure of how far out of your way you should go to visit and/or play a course. In a world filled with marketing promotions, Tom's courage to print such a book (and step on many toes) is much appreciated. I don't have time to see all the "7s", but anything rated higher I sure want to experience at least once.

What makes the Confidental Guide so interesting, is not the ratings Tom gives, but his willingness to express why a course received whatever number given. Then, too, Tom offers comments you might not expect.

Candidly, when I purchased the book I did have the concern Tom mentions in the Introduction: was there a conflict of interest between being a critic and being a practicing architect? In the end, however, Tom sold me that he really tried to be as objective as possible within the framework of his own openly stated preferences.

If there was one review that made me give Tom a seal of approval it was Winged Foot. Nobody would dare criticize the place. but, I grew up near the course and always preferred Quaker Ridge. Tom helped me articulate why: in truth, for all Tillinghast did, the land itself at Winged Foot really isn't anything special.

Find a copy of the Confidential Guide. There is no chance you will regret the effort to track it down. My only hope is that Tom can surpass it with a book on Pacific Dunes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2002, 04:34:26 PM »
JakaB -

Damn the Christmas list, I just ordered a "previously read" copy of Doak's book ... I feel better now ...

Thanks

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

DakaJakaLakaRakaFred

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2002, 04:51:42 PM »
Quote
The inside cover of The Confidential Guide reads...No part of this book may be reproduced in any manner without the express written consent of the publisher, except in the case of brief excerpts in critical reviews and articles.
Hey JakaB--you just violated your own rule! I assume "No part of this book" also covers the part you cited! You'd better delete it before you send yourself a threatening email! ;D ;D ;D
Happy Thanksgiving!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The Doak Scale
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2002, 05:08:53 PM »
I must argue that the ascap thing is BS. If I sold my IP its gone. If I don't want it out and about I don't have to sell it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »