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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 11:54:07 AM »
Andy,

You're supposed to complete that congratulations to Huckaby with an invitation for a $20 nassau so long as he brings those hickories out. :D

Tom Huckaby

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2006, 12:00:24 PM »
Andy - please understand that for me, the use of hickories will remain a novelty and a lark for the forseeable future.  I just wanted to perhaps shed some light on why a reasonable mind would choose to do this.  Yes, I am assuming you find me reasonable.  ;D   Anyway, if I am playing with others using modern clubs, unless it's a TOTAL screw-around round, hell yes I'll continue to use modern clubs.  And JES, well I am dumb but not THAT dumb.  If me using hickories v. someone else using modern occurs, I am going to learn from the great Ran Morrisset and demand nine strokes at least from anyone halfway decent.

 ;D

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2006, 12:00:43 PM »
Quote
You're supposed to complete that congratulations to Huckaby with an invitation for a $20 nassau so long as he brings those hickories out.
JES, unfortunately, he'd still kick my a@@.  :'(
(tough to beat those club champs!)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2006, 12:20:23 PM »
Fair enough.

Tom Huckaby

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2006, 01:02:36 PM »
Andy gives far too much credence to my 2004 victory at the illustrious Santa Teresa GC, doesn't realize that's about the last time I've played much, and that I suck now with modern and hickory.

TH
a disciple of Ran, the beggar for strokes
 ;D

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2006, 01:39:46 PM »
Quote
Andy - please understand that for me, the use of hickories will remain a novelty and a lark for the forseeable future.
Of course, I understand that.  But anything you can do to make the game enjoyable seems like a very good thing.

Quote
Andy gives far too much credence to my 2004 victory at the illustrious Santa Teresa GC
Hey, they don't call it the Oakmont of the West for nothing. (Err, or maybe they just don't call it that?)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tom Huckaby

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2006, 01:51:10 PM »
Santa Teresa - the Oakmont of the West.  I like it.

What sucks though is we already have two Oakmonts out here.. one in SoCal (Pasadena), one in NorCal (near Santa Rosa).

So I believe we ought to be the Merion of the West.  No one has dared steal that name yet.

 ;D

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2006, 02:04:34 PM »
Quote
So I believe we ought to be the Merion of the West.  No one has dared steal that name yet.

Tom, that would be quite a coincidence, as for many years Merion members have quietly called their little gem the Santa Theresa of the East.   ;)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tom Huckaby

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2006, 02:11:30 PM »
As well you should.  And you're very wise to and the "h" in Theresa - fail to do so and we'll sue your asses off.

 ;D ;D

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2006, 02:22:00 PM »
Quote
As well you should.  And you're very wise to and the "h" in Theresa - fail to do so and we'll sue your asses off.

Well, I wish it was 'you should', but in reality it is 'they should.'

Oops, heh heh, sorry about the additional 'h' in your beloved Santa Teresa--guess that's kinda like spelling it Mehrion?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Patrick_Mucci

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2006, 05:26:45 PM »

Pat, imagine CB Mcdonald's shock when his kid drove the first green at NGLA, quite a bit beyond what the architect intended as the ideal shot. It happens, and clearly has happened for quite some time.

That's not true.

Anyone who's stood on the first tee at NGLA understands that driving the first green is not something shocking, especially if conditions are firm.

Have you ever played NGLA ?


It says a lot for the hole at Boca Rio that a difficult shot executed perfectly paid off with a nice reward.  Isn't that a part of strategic design?  

NO, absolutely not.
It was never contemplated by the architect.


Presumably there would have been a price to play for taking so bold a line if the shot had not been executed perfectly?

Do you think AM contemplated golfers possibly driving the 13th green at ANGC ?

Is there a price to pay if the attempt is not executed properly ?

« Last Edit: February 09, 2006, 05:27:13 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2006, 06:01:06 PM »
Quote
Pat, imagine CB Mcdonald's shock when his kid drove the first green at NGLA, quite a bit beyond what the architect intended as the ideal shot. It happens, and clearly has happened for quite some time.
That's not true.
Anyone who's stood on the first tee at NGLA understands that driving the first green is not something shocking, especially if conditions are firm.
Have you ever played NGLA ?
Not true?  The why would Macdonald have bet his son that it could not be driven?  Why would he have been so angry about it if he thought it possible?
(and you know I have not played NGLA--why else have I pestered you the past 1 1/2 years with NGLA questions? ;))

Quote
It says a lot for the hole at Boca Rio that a difficult shot executed perfectly paid off with a nice reward.  Isn't that a part of strategic design?
NO, absolutely not.
It was never contemplated by the architect.
I think you are confusing a strategic element with a strategic element that the architect envisioned.  They are not the same, but the fact that the architect did not intend it or conceive of it does not mean the element is not strategic.


Quote
Presumably there would have been a price to play for taking so bold a line if the shot had not been executed perfectly?
Do you think AM contemplated golfers possibly driving the 13th green at ANGC ?
Is there a price to pay if the attempt is not executed properly ?
No, I assume AM did not contemplate it.
Yes, there would be a severe price to pay.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2006, 11:05:28 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  
#9 at MP--I could question that some; I didn't think the dogleg would have been easy to cut with driver.  (And, I was hooking my driver in the morning round all the way to Tennessee.   :-[  )  I seem to recall those trees being REALLY tall.  
#10 PN was kind of a no brainer.  Great hole.  
As for #12 at Tobacco, in hindsight, I can see the questionable nature of driver there, but I think I made the right play; I'm long enough to get into that neck, provided I turn it over enough.  What did others do there?
I heard of a lot of 3-woods there, but my feeling was, for me, 4 wood would have left me very far back, and I just dropped the previous hole to Remy and Jim.  

What do you think?

Doug

I tried driver, 3 wood and 7 wood off the tee at TR's #12.  None of these worked, I bogeyed it everytime and each time I hit the tee shot exactly as planned.  The first time Gracely gave me bad advice, he said the bunker on the far side of the fairway wasn't reachable.  The second time I hit 3 wood, wrong club, straight into the bunker.  The last time I hit 7 wood.  This left a choked 6 iron approach.  I hit the green but the ball strangely stayed high on the right side.  A tough two putt which I didn't pull off.  I would certainly hit 7 wood again as I think under normal conditions (the greens were a bit soggy) a ball hitting that green has to slide down to the center.

I can't remember #9 at Mid Pines.  Was that the hole I hit that sling hook from the left pines?  The green is sort of built up and the fairway runs right to left.

#10 at Pine Needles wasn't one of my favourites.  I didn't care for the left bunker on the turn of the dogleg.  It just seemed to take away any chance of trying to sling the ball around the corner to get home in two.  The hole plays longer than the yardage suggests.  I could still hit driver to the right, layup with 7 wood and wedge home.  

Ciao

Sean

Sean-

  #9 at MP was the dogl. right--I seem to recall you hitting maybe long iron--I leaned on you for that hole!  
  #12 at MP was your great slinger approach to about two feet--that was the downhill hooker hole, where the green was oriented to accept a shot from the extreme left fairway.
I liked #10 at PN--I was building myself up to rip the ball right over the left bunkers!  ;D (Ah, to be young!)

  I second your stance on #12 at TR--that green slopes a bunch front to back--and balls landing on the front SHOULD roll down towards the back of the green, but it was so, so wet.   Tough green to putt as I remember--looks like it breaks one way, it stays straight, but it could have been due to the conditions.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2006, 01:47:41 AM »
A well designed course plays very similarly for someone hitting the ball like I do from the 6,000 yard tees and someone hitting it 20-25 yards farther and playing the 6,500 yard tees.

The only difference is that the short hitter does not experience the thrill hitting the ball and seeing it travel 230+ yards in the air, hanging up there for six or seven seconds of air time. However, that's a big difference. As Shivas keeps pointing out, hitting it far and sure is one of the elemental pleasures of the game. There are no tees I can play from to hit the ball as high, straight and far as you can.

Interfacing with the architecture is fun. Getting the ball in the hole is the ultimate goal. But don't sell short the pleasure of making the ball fly through the air. That's certainly why most kids who pick up a golf club decide to play the game.


I don't know about that.  Most kids who pick up a club for the first time don't hit any shots high and far.  They are happy to hit one square enough to buzz it out 100 or 150 yards instead of all the whiffs and 25 yarders straight sideways they hit the first two dozen times they swing at it.

I don't think the fact I can hit it higher, further and with more hang time than you means I get more pleasure out of the game than you.  That's ridiculous, because it means the people who enjoy golf the most are the gorillas in the long drive contests!  I don't feel that I'm shortchanged because I can't hit it like they do, or even as far as short knockers like Bubba and JB Holmes.

The point is, as you say, interfacing with the architecture, and more of that should be done on the ground.  We're getting away from the origins of the game by longing after high drives that carry a long way.  From the time I was about 17 until the spring of 2001 when I first teed up my 400cc driver and a Pro V1, I was CURSED by high drives with a nice hang time.  Sure, they carried further than most anyone else's, but they didn't roll for shit, and the 90000 rpm spin rate put them at the mercy of the slightest breeze.  I was always trying this thing or that to get the trajectory and/or spin rate down, trying swing changes, using drivers with lofts as low as 6.5*, etc.

Sure, the high drive is in vogue now because the characteristics of the ball demand it for the best results, but if we went back to a higher spin ball like Tiger suggests, knowledgeable golfers would once again ooh and ah not over my drives that reached the ionosphere, but the "pro trajectory" drives that never reached the tops of the trees lining the fairway.

I think that if Shivas said one of the elemental pleasures of the game was hitting it far and sure he wasn't talking about today's optimized trajectories.  He's talking about hitting the shot you visualize, and hitting it well.  And the shot you visualize is dependant on the limitations and advantages of your equipment, and the dictates of the architecture.  If you play a soggy course with modern equipment, then the skyball that hangs in the air for 7 seconds is what you want.  But if you play NGLA with a Tiger-recommended high spin ball, you are going to want that low trajectory drive that I'll bet old hands like Mucci and TEPaul can hit with their eyes closed, and not the shit I'd be flinging up into the wind getting blown two fairways over!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2006, 01:49:08 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2006, 05:12:14 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  
#9 at MP--I could question that some; I didn't think the dogleg would have been easy to cut with driver.  (And, I was hooking my driver in the morning round all the way to Tennessee.   :-[  )  I seem to recall those trees being REALLY tall.  
#10 PN was kind of a no brainer.  Great hole.  
As for #12 at Tobacco, in hindsight, I can see the questionable nature of driver there, but I think I made the right play; I'm long enough to get into that neck, provided I turn it over enough.  What did others do there?
I heard of a lot of 3-woods there, but my feeling was, for me, 4 wood would have left me very far back, and I just dropped the previous hole to Remy and Jim.  

What do you think?

Doug

I tried driver, 3 wood and 7 wood off the tee at TR's #12.  None of these worked, I bogeyed it everytime and each time I hit the tee shot exactly as planned.  The first time Gracely gave me bad advice, he said the bunker on the far side of the fairway wasn't reachable.  The second time I hit 3 wood, wrong club, straight into the bunker.  The last time I hit 7 wood.  This left a choked 6 iron approach.  I hit the green but the ball strangely stayed high on the right side.  A tough two putt which I didn't pull off.  I would certainly hit 7 wood again as I think under normal conditions (the greens were a bit soggy) a ball hitting that green has to slide down to the center.

I can't remember #9 at Mid Pines.  Was that the hole I hit that sling hook from the left pines?  The green is sort of built up and the fairway runs right to left.

#10 at Pine Needles wasn't one of my favourites.  I didn't care for the left bunker on the turn of the dogleg.  It just seemed to take away any chance of trying to sling the ball around the corner to get home in two.  The hole plays longer than the yardage suggests.  I could still hit driver to the right, layup with 7 wood and wedge home.  

Ciao

Sean

Sean-

  #9 at MP was the dogl. right--I seem to recall you hitting maybe long iron--I leaned on you for that hole!  
  #12 at MP was your great slinger approach to about two feet--that was the downhill hooker hole, where the green was oriented to accept a shot from the extreme left fairway.
I liked #10 at PN--I was building myself up to rip the ball right over the left bunkers!  ;D (Ah, to be young!)

  I second your stance on #12 at TR--that green slopes a bunch front to back--and balls landing on the front SHOULD roll down towards the back of the green, but it was so, so wet.   Tough green to putt as I remember--looks like it breaks one way, it stays straight, but it could have been due to the conditions.  

Doug

I still can't visualize the hole.  I lose the routing after 8 and don't pick it up fully until 12.  Somebody help me, I can't find a course map online to prompt me!

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2006, 07:19:27 AM »
Sean,

This may come as a shock to you, but,

There was a time when golfers didn't want to hit the ball high, and watch it's flight, as you allude to.

A low draw was the prefered trajectory, followed by lots of roll.

Prefered launch angles, low torque shafts, bigger clubfaces, longer tees and a few other factors have recently caused the trend toward howitzer like trajectories.

Brent Hutto

Re:How does length make architecture more interesting...
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2006, 07:22:18 AM »
The only difference is that the short hitter does not experience the thrill hitting the ball and seeing it travel 230+ yards in the air, hanging up there for six or seven seconds of air time. However, that's a big difference. As Shivas keeps pointing out, hitting it far and sure is one of the elemental pleasures of the game. There are no tees I can play from to hit the ball as high, straight and far as you can.
I don't think the fact I can hit it higher, further and with more hang time than you means I get more pleasure out of the game than you.  That's ridiculous, because it means the people who enjoy golf the most are the gorillas in the long drive contests!  I don't feel that I'm shortchanged because I can't hit it like they do, or even as far as short knockers like Bubba and JB Holmes.

Doug, you overstated my point. I didn't mean that not hitting it longer and further made the rest of the game less fun. Most of what golf is all about I can experience in exactly the same way as anyone else. There's just that one little bonus of seeing a ball fly 250 yards in the air and land waaaay out there in the middle of the fairway. That's the one thing you get to experience that I don't. Hitting it short doesn't ruin the game but being able to hit it long is awfully nice (just ask anyone who's 75 years old and used it hit it a long way, they really miss that part of the game).

It's analogous to the fact that you and I do indeed play the same actual game as Tiger Woods. We can even experience the agony of defeat and the thrill of victory as some level. But we'll never know quite what it's like to make a 10-foot putt with 20,000 people holding their breath around us and then hearing them go ape-shit when it goes it. Not playing on a worldwide stage doesn't spoil our enjoyment of the game but it sure must be nice (assuming you have the guts to deal with it).

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