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Patrick_Mucci

Ruination ?
« on: February 06, 2006, 07:28:51 PM »
Is the PGA Tour primarily responsible for the ruination of classic architecture ?

Is there any abatement in sight ?

Do architects and developers contribute to the downward spriral by building 7,400, 7,600 and 7,800 yard golf courses ?

Why do courses continually offer their architecture up to the sacrificial knife ?

Glenn Spencer

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2006, 07:38:01 PM »
Patrick,

I for one, absolutely think so. I don't blame the architects at all though. Can you imagine building Trump a par 70 6800 yard golf course with tricky greens. He would laugh at you, I would guess. I truly see no solution, it is out of control. Those idiots on CBS, you would have thought Donald Ross was walking down the fairways at Scottsdale. They don't help anything, "I have not enjoyed watching golf this much in a long time" Lanny Wadkins. For what it is worth, I enjoyed watching Kevin Tway play Longmeadow properly. 27 out of 35 weeks the pro tour is boring.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2006, 07:57:21 PM »
Is the PGA Tour primarily responsible for the ruination of classic architecture ?
Why do courses continually offer their architecture up to the sacrificial knife ?

The PGA could reign in the yardages by changing ball specs, the same way Major League Baseball mandates the use of wooden bats. The USGA needs to follow suit or top courses will still not be able to host the top local and amateur tourneys or just accept the lower scores and irons off most of the tees. It is a problem that could be fixed over night and the PGA and USGA should never have let it get this far. 240 yard four irons should not be the norm or even possible.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2006, 08:18:12 PM »
It's a losing battle. I think I threw in the towel this weekend when CBS annointed J.B. Holmes the new messiah (Tiger was in Dubai, after all, and Daly was probably on his way to detox...again.)

Nothing gets the network announcers going like distance. that filters down to even the more knowledgable sportswriters. I heard one guy on a local radio show this week talking about possible equipment changes to limit the distance the ball carries, and he said, "Why would you want to limit the most exciting part of the game?"

I don't know how to argue with that anymore. J.B. Holmes is what the people want. He appears to be a terrific player, but if he were doing it with his putter and his four-iron, I don't know how much excitement he'd be generating.

It's not the game I want to see, but it is the game we've got. The ruination of the game as we used to know it -- at least as it is played on TV -- is complete. C'est la vie.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2006, 08:18:53 PM »
1. Yes, I think so, since that is where the problems with distance originate and reside.

2. Yes, I think so, since there are limits to how fast a human being can swing a golf club.

3. Yes, without a doubt, since golf exists in a competitive market and the ethic seems to be that the posted yardage determines the desirability to the consumers.

4. This is the one I am really curious and perplexed about.  I would assume that the answers are, in no particular order:
     a. marketing
     b. a misunderstanding of the reality that adding length to the course only makes it MORE important to hit the ball a long way, not less.
     c. money, if they wish to host a professional event.

I do think that many older courses have been forced to upgrade in terms of bunkers, drainage, grasses, greens, etc., due to the huge number of new courses around them as a commercial reality, and in the process have added length.  But it is perplexing...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2006, 08:24:32 PM »
Is the PGA Tour responsible for the ruination of classic architecture?

No.  Unless in some subliminal way watching golf on TV makes greens committees do stupid things.

Do architects and developers contribute to the dowward spiral?

What downward spiral?  If you mean they are spending more, and getting less interesting golf courses, maybe there is a downward spiral.  One good thing about a 7500 yard course is there's also a good 6800 yard course and a good 6000 yard course inside ...multible tees give you 3 or 4 good courses for the price of one......I'm not sure you can say that about a "classic course" that tops out at 6500 yds.

Why do courses offer up for sacrifice?

Ego, money, stupidity....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Kyle Harris

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2006, 10:04:53 PM »
For one, I don't think the PGA Tour is responsible for the ruiantion of classic architecture. I do feel it enables it though - much like the bar down the street didn't cause someone's alcoholism, but it enables it.

Any number of non-professional golf related contributing factors helped. The massive tree plantings of the 50s and 60s, coupled with the development of single row irrigation which brought faiways in and saw bunkers and angles of play started it.

I think this method became mimicked moreso than anything... TV and the PGA Tour just put some of the egregious examples in plain sight for everybody.

Mark Brown

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2006, 10:08:18 PM »
Patrick,
I think a lot of it is aestetics, particularly in golf and residential communities. People see beautiful landscaping by Fazio and many others and don't really understand design -- it's just a social gathering.

I think the private golf only clubs are the ones that retain the classical stlye design

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2006, 10:28:06 PM »
If you are talking about classics that are tour stops then of course the answer is yes.  If it’s a TPC yes and if the course wants to market itself as a "championship course" then yes.

Also, the more I think about it the casual player wants to play where the pros play, or in a similar environment, even if they don't play the same tees.  In that case the architecture is market driven.

I wish TV commentators would highlight how silly it has gotten when the majority of players can blast over a previously strategic hazard.  Maybe they could highlight why it was there and how it adds interest.  I think if more golfers learned to look for architecture in their playing then some of the market forces would change.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2006, 11:18:11 PM »
The TPC courses which are used for the Tour are not much longer than the average course they play -- certainly Scottsdale and Sawgrass are not long.  And I'm told the Commissioner has told the tour staff NOT to lengthen the holes on any of the TPC courses, because the contingent of shorter and straighter hitters on the Tour are already convinced that the world is conspiring against them, and they are a major voting bloc.

It's the players on the Tour hitting it so far which gets people focused on length ... especially when the network announcers are babbling on about it in awe.  Of course, a lot of those ads in between the shots are paid for by equipment companies, so that may have something to do with the commentary.

Craig Sweet:  name a good 7500 yard course which is also an interesting 6500 yard course.  Just one, please.  I don't believe the two are really compatible.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2006, 11:32:20 PM »
Sadly, I think the point really boils down to what you view golf to be.  If golf is a test of specific skills at specific times of a round, then penal dependent designs and optionless golf are bound to follow.  If golf is a test of skill coupled with strategic decision making, the game will recover and come back.  Flanking bunkers, long rough, narrow fairways and length for its own sake really are the easy way out.  It takes thought and craftsmanship to create holes comprised of multiple landing areas with multiple and differing benefits that change as pin placements vary.  The majority of those who play our course on a daily basis do not want to think.  the enjoy the fact that it is obvious they are to hit from point A to point B to point C and if they fail they are punished.  Having to think on a day off due to width, angle of attack etc... Is just too much to ask some to undertake on a day off.  That's OK though, for they can play down the middle of our strategic masterpieces and never know what they are missing.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2006, 12:44:56 AM »
John K,

Is the Ocean course really "good" from the 7800 yard tees?  I hit it pretty far but from what I understand about its repetitive long forced carries I probably wouldn't have much fun back there once, let alone day in and day out.  Maybe J.B. Holmes might like it.

If you take a good 7000 yard course and build some new tees to create a 7700 yard course, it doesn't matter to most people whether the 7700 yard course is good or not because they won't play it.  If you start moving bunkers around and doing other stuff to make it better from 7700 yards, its quite possible you are making it worse from 7000 yards.

As more courses started getting designed with longer tees in mind, on some of them the shorter tees will suffer from a lack of strategy, or unintended consequences caused by the bigger and badder driving hazards that will be necessary to fight the FLOG.  We may see a resurgeance in hazards that resemble the Cardinal or Hell.  Nope, in our dreams!  I bet we'll just see more "environmentally sensitive areas" marked with red stakes!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2006, 12:52:06 AM »
It's not the pro tour that has rendered many older and less difficult courses obsolete.  It's the modern players and the modern techniques they use to maximize their ability.  These guys are so damn good now.  

What most impressed me about J.B. Holmes was how compact his swing was.  340 yard drives with a 3/4 backswing.  Great looking swing.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 12:58:08 AM by John Kirk »

ForkaB

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2006, 12:55:22 AM »
Craig Sweet:  name a good 7500 yard course which is also an interesting 6500 yard course.  Just one, please.  I don't believe the two are really compatible.

Tom

I'm not Craig, but how about the Old Course?  Yes, I know it's not yet 7500 from the tips, but it's getting there!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2006, 03:32:35 AM »
I find it completely mind boggling to blame the tour for long courses.  Sure, the tour has been directly responsible for building some long courses, but they had nothing to do with the vast majority of modern monstrosities or mucking about with old courses for that matter.  As Kyle suggests, this is akin to blaming the barman for somebody having a drink problem.  The barman is selling a product, you are either buying it or not.  It is no different with golf.

Golf is like any industry, it is consumer driven and recently the consumer has been choosing to play long courses.  I don't see this trend really changing in the near future with a ball roll back or not.  I do find it interesting that the GCA approved courses of late are mostly public hits as well.  These courses seem to be doing alright financially.  Is this suggesting that GCA types are underserved or have many of these courses been built in clever areas where they can be marketed to great effect and maximizing their potential?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

T_MacWood

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2006, 06:31:06 AM »
Ruination, I'm not sure about that, but they are responsible for a number of courses being redesigned, Major venues and Major hopefuls. The populariy of professional golf from TV had and has a big impact upon golf architecture and popular tastes. It may have made RTJ career, and he gave us Rees.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2006, 06:59:04 AM »
Tom:  Again, maybe you can blame the larger "tour", but not the PGA Tour management itself.  They are not the ones lengthening courses or changing classics.  They haven't touched Westchester or Harbour Town, and they wouldn't have touched Riviera -- that's the owners trying to attract a major.

It's the major championships and the USGA which are the ones constantly tweaking and messing with classic courses, not the Tour itself.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2006, 07:48:16 AM »
I agree with Tom D. The real villains are the USGA, PGA and (unhappily now) ANGC setups.

Majors are played on important courses. People watch them on TV. They watch them very carefully.

They almost always come away with the wrong lesson. They make the cardinal mistake of confusing (a) tournament set ups for a major with (b) improvements to the course.

Two very different things. Remarkably few people grasp the distinction.

Bob
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 07:53:40 AM by BCrosby »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2006, 08:07:11 AM »
Tom:  Again, maybe you can blame the larger "tour", but not the PGA Tour management itself.  They are not the ones lengthening courses or changing classics.  They haven't touched Westchester or Harbour Town, and they wouldn't have touched Riviera -- that's the owners trying to attract a major.

It's the major championships and the USGA which are the ones constantly tweaking and messing with classic courses, not the Tour itself.

Tom

You can't have it both ways.  One the one hand you blame Riviera for changes designed to attract a major.  On the other hand you blame the USGA for changing other courses to attract a major.

If members have a choice if they want to attract a major or not then surely it is memberships who are responsible for changes to their course?  How could it be any other way?

This whole scenario with the distance problem seems to be one huge jacking of responsibility.  There is no point in blaming the tour, the USGA or the PGA.  The problem lies with golfers, they are the consumers and they make choices with their pocketbook.  When golfers look in the mirror and take the blame for creating the distance issue and decide to do something about it then perhaps things will change.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2006, 08:13:09 AM »
I think saying equipment is the root cause of the change of golf courses is putting the cart before the horse.

The tight, quick green, deep rough set up has been around since long before Pittsburgh Persimmon was on the market. Corridors of play, angles of attack and the ichthus of bunkers and fairways were lost while you all were still playing Wilson Blades, Titleist Tour 100s (with one ball in every few dozen as dead as a koosh ball), and your Izett Persimmons (10 degree driver, 14 degree 3-wood, and 16 degree 4-wood).

Most of the tree plantings on your every day country club are 30-40 years old, not 5.

If anything, I think the proclivity to the narrowing of corridors has lead to the "straight and high" equipment market. Width in play just isn't accepted anymore.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2006, 08:18:40 AM »
What course that would be considered classic courses does the PGA Tour play?  This question may have to be examined on a case by case basis.  In general I guess there is always the debate about the impact of TV on society in general.  For some of us who don’t watch TV much the Tour would have little if any impact.  If there is any truth to be found about architecture I think you find it by doing rather than by watching so it is important what clutter is allowed into your thoughts, therefore it is possible that the drivel some point to in these telecasts is making its way into the mainstream of thought that is then carried to clubs around the country.  

With regards for your architects and developers question I would think that the concept for the course, or the reason for its existence, is the primary question rather than the distance.  The club where I grew up was a social entity and a golf club, it was the hub of many people’s lives and it had that atmosphere which was a good thing.  The architecture of the course would be pretty low by any standard however because of many factors which included the reasons for its existence it was the most enjoyable golf I ever experienced.  In large part I think this was due to the low-key informal nature of the whole operation around the golf pro shop and snack bar.  What I see today is more a proliferation of courses with other purposes be it to sell homes around the course, cater to outings, and to maximize play at all hours during the week and weekends.   There is much more of a managed, business like atmosphere, and this is predominantly at the public golf level now, I am not in the private market anymore except for my work.  The golf course in the community as the hub of activity has been displaced somewhat by competition.  So, I think there are many more factors to consider other than the long courses if you believe as you do that golf is on a downward spiral.  For instance, I think there could be a big difference in the way the same course could be perceived under two different circumstances: One, a public course that is their to serve the golfing and social needs of the local community, where the requirement is not to make money, but rather to serve those aforementioned needs to the highest  level possible while still breaking even and nothing more, or the same course that is professionally managed and must maximize profits at all costs in order for the management company to meet the needs of their stockholders and owners.  Same course, two different concepts of business approaches, and I predict you would come away from the experience with two vastly different impressions.

The demise of architecture at clubs has much to do with the members in charge as it does with the restoration and improvement of the architecture.  I have seen incidences where the powers at the club allowed an incompetent architect to carve up what was otherwise a very interesting course, so certainly there is some responsibility there as well.  However, more times than not there are members of a club who have no place being in charge, who are grossly incompetent when it comes to making decisions that affect the course.  The push for certain playing conditions has pulled the superintendent into this mix as well.  I think their ability to deliver unprecedented conditions has more than anything threatened the economic solvency of some operations.  Some clubs can not accept that turf and playing conditions must adjust weekly to the weather conditions.  The desire to maintain the same conditions throughout the season is a terrible goal of many clubs.  The constant oversight by some members has caused the superintendent to become more of a yes man and his inability to deliver the exact conditions from week to week has put him on the defensive.  But, the GCSAA and the suppliers have not made his job easy because for years instead of being proactive in discussing in a public forum just where do we want the turf maintenance of American courses to be they were largely silent about reasonable limitations and instead featured the latest breakthroughs in technology that could help the superintendent maintain design features of the most ridiculous nature.  

wsmorrison

Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2006, 08:54:07 AM »
I think primary blame should fall on the USGA and R and A.  They should have done a better job in managing technological impact on the sport.

I am also very much inclined to agree with KBM that, secondary to the free reign of technology, the memberships in general and the committee leaders in particular are responsible for changes to their own courses.  They make the decisions and they pay the bills.  If an architect gives them what they want, are you going to blame the architect, USGA, PGA or TV?  Theirs may be a derivative response but they have control and ultimate responsibility.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2006, 09:07:39 AM »
Patrick,

The next time you notice that a marvelous 2,000 sf craftsman's bungalow in a toney infill location has been torn down and replaced by a shoe-horned 6,000 sf McMansion, don't blame it on HGTV.  

Golf course architecture does not occupy a vacuum.  It is subject to the same cultural trends and whims that today values bigger, expensive, glamourous and spectacular.  That, and money just has a nasty habit of burning holes in people's pockets, even when it's not their money.  

The enemy is us - not the tour.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2006, 09:56:30 AM »
Bogey....

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. Bigger,expensive, spectacular...manifest destiny!

Tom Doak...

I think the Old Works is a pretty good golf course from several of its tee's...to name one.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruination ?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2006, 09:59:44 AM »
Quote
When golfers look in the mirror and take the blame for creating the distance issue and decide to do something about it then perhaps things will change.
Sean, you don't really believe that'll ever happen, do you? No matter how far JB Holmes or Daly or Tiger hits it on the TV freakshow, how many golfers/consumers think the ball goes too far [b[for them[/b], or that strategies have been lost because they now hit the ball too far?
The process you wish for will never happen. How do I know? Because of Pat Mucci's  'Joy of hitting it shorter' thread from 2 weeks ago. In spite of what Pat wrote in that thread, in spite of Pat's love of architecture and strategy and classic courses, he will be trying to hit it as far as possible with the latest and greatest equipment as soon as he can.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

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