Cuscowilla...what am I missing?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Just got finished playing Cuscowilla in 50 degress temps and a 20 mph breeze. Knowing that this is a C&C course and is very highly touted by most GCAers, I expected Cusco to be incredible. Without saying, Jeff Bradley's bunkering is fantastic-Incredible peaks and bays, great use of the native plants and maintained correctly by Rusty Mercer and Co... but I have a few issues with the greens and their surrounds. It seemed as those all greens sloped from back to front, meaning ANYTHING long is dead. On top of that, every green had a close cut, chipping area all the way around it. I love fast greens as much as anyone, but with the coutours, they were too fast.  
  I feel as though the opening holes (1-6) are very solid with a very good par 3 in #3 and a great, short par 4 in #5. I think that #2 is poor driving hole...seems too tight with trees almost in the fairway. #7 reminded me of a campground course from back in Michigan. #13 needs something...a bunker, a native area, something....and #18 isn't a good finisher. #10,#11 and #12 are as good as anything in Georgia...great golf holes with options. I think #12 is the smallest green that I've ever played. The Best <300 yard hole I've seen.
  What I'm getting at is that there doesn't seem to be a consistancy in the course....several good holes in a row and then one that would be better off thrown out....I think that I'm a pretty good judge of architecture and I hate to bash C&C cause I used to work with them at Friar's Head...what am I missing? I'm not really sure if I would go out of my way to play there again....I will probably not be popular for writing this, but does anyone else feel this way a dare to speek up?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Brent Hutto]

I'm no architecture expert but in my opinion Cuscowilla is, from tee to green, a very good golf course. In fact, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call it great when you think of the variety of shots to be played, the mixture of hole lengths and those beautiful bunkers.

The back-to-front sloping greens with tight lies surrounding them are totally my cup of tea but I can understand how if you don't like that sort of thing (or don't like a steady diet of it) the course as a whole might therefore leave you with a less favorable impression than my own. At the least, there's the danger of the greens getting out of control if they're speeded up a little too much. That's true of any heavily canted green complexes. When we played the Dixie Cup there the combination of some borderline hole locations and fairly quick green speeds (probably not over 10.5-11 Stimp, though) made for slow play and plenty of frustration to anyone keeping a scorecard.

I will completely agree with your downgrade of the finishing hole. Cuscowilla is not alone among famous courses in which the eighteenth is a letdown. I personally love the seventeenth hole and could easily imagine it being a nerve-wracking place to finish a round or a match. I can not agree however with your disrespect of the seventh which I enjoyed very much. It's an odd hole and either suffers from or depends overmuch upon short-lived pine trees to provide interest but the actual shots you have to hit are fun ones IMHO. Plus after you leave the seventh green you get to walk over to the eighth hole which I love unconditionally and unreasonably. So there.

Tony, I have one followup to your comments about the seventh and twelfth holes. Would the seventh be a better hole as a very short Par 4 of around 300 yards (i.e. if it played more like the twelfth except with a more conventional green)?

[EDIT] Let me sum up my comments by saying I would never compare Cuscowilla to, say, the Ocean Course at Kiawah or Spyglass Hill to name two truly great resort courses which can also significantly challenge the best players. But as an enthusiastic golfer who hits it short and scores in the 90's Cuscowilla offers me more fun per shot than almost any place I've played.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Brett,
  I think that #7 would be better if the green was located near the tree on the left the juts out into the fairway...mre of an option to go or lay back. I just didn't really care for the homes that are routed through the trees. For the record, I'd say the greens were 11-11.5.....they were PLENTY fast!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Mark Brown]

Tony,

C&C designed the green contours for Bermuda and the developer insisted on bent and the contours are too severe for bent when it's cut right. I love the variety and the ebb and flow of the course.

On No.2 the dogleg is left and the fairway slopes right. They did that on purpose to make you figure out how you want to play your tee shot.

You can't play it just once. There's too much to the design.

Cheers! Mark

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mark,
  As weird as it sounds, that helps out a lot. Those contours would be much better for Tifdwarf or tifeagle. This is the same reason that they overseed at Chechessee Creek-If they let the greens go dormant and paint them, they would be WAY too fast and unfair and the coutouring is similar. Though, where Cusco is located, that's bentgrass territory.....maybe that should have been thought out more cause like I said, they were lightning today!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Bill_McBride]

#2 and #7 tee shots both call for a draw.  I would be a lot better at playing those holes if I could hit a draw with any consistency!  Actually, most holes at Cuscowilla with the exception of #4, # 8, #10 are best played with a draw.  Fades work best on those holes.

Given how straight many players like Tom Huckaby say they are with the driver, isn't it fun to see a course where it's advantageous to be able to actually hit a draw on demand?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I love Cuscowilla, but agree the greens are on the edge to severe for anybody but the better short game players. The bermuda and bent discusions are interesting.

[BCrosby]

The second is a terrific hole. If you can't hold the left side of the fairway, you have limited options on the second shot. The long diagonal bunker is a wonderful governor of how much you want to bite off on any second hit towards the green from the lower right side. You drive to the bail out area on the right, you pay the price on the next shot. You drive the ball down the left side - a more difficult shot - the diagonal bunker is much less in play.

I like the 7th. An extradordinarily wide fairway that has, in fact, a narrow workable landing area. If you miss that workable area, there are all sorts of recovery opportunities, many of them, ironically, from the fairway. (Remove the tree on the left, you still have one of those fascinating driving holes where the options appear limitless. But they aren't. Quite the contrary)

The 18th is a terrific finishing hole. It is a very long par 4 that calls for a well hit draw off the tee and then a long or medium iron into a big, delta shaped "Foxy" type green perched on a ridge. A big boy par 4 that is an appropriate finish for a big boy golf course.
 

Cusco has always had lightening fast greens and surrounds. Deal with it. The ATL area is known to keep its clay-based courses soggy most of the time. Cusco is a wonderfull change of pace. I wish more courses in the ATL area set their courses up similarly.

Bob

   

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mr. Crosby,
  Don't think for a second that Cusco played fast and firm-granted, they had several tenths of an inch on Friday, but I had mud on my ball all day-I'm sure part of that is because of it's clay base... and those contours are too servere to have greens running anthing over 11. Hell, Long Cove's greens aren't as severe and at 11 on the stimp, we lose a lot of cupping area! Cusco reminded me a bit of Hidden Creek-Left me wondering what the hype was about. I think that C&C do an incredible job of building minimulist courses, such at Friar's Head, Sand Hills and Bandon Trails, but when they have to created something ot of nothing, their designs seem to be a little bit second teir-Warren Course, Cusco and Hidden Creek.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[redanman]

Anthony

Maybe you've just not drunk enough C & C brand Kool-Aid?  

Not all their work is superlative as most here would have you believe.  Refreshing to see an honest take.

[jeffwarne]

Anthony,
Why are the greens stimping too fast C&C's fault?
And for that matter,the lack of firm and fast conditions.
Seems that's mainly a site and maintenance issue(as well as mother nature)
Yet you complimented the maintenance.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff,
  In my post, I compliment the maintenance of the bunkers. They continued to be handraked. Jeff always said that a mechanical rake would ruin his bunkering and that would be the case there. That is a guarenteed way to keep the look. I do compliment Rusty and Co in the fact that they do not overseed anything other than the range tee-that's one way to have firmer conditions. It also appeared as though they've installed fairways drainage on may holes to hlp out with the clay soils.
  I personally think if the developer wanted bentgrass, some of the greens should have been reworked to make sure that speed didn't get out of control.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[jeffwarne]

bermuda would've been better anyway as bent greens in the south make it difficult to maintain firmness in summer conditions.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff,
  Then what are your options....soften the contours of the greens....simple. Bentgrass greens aren't too quick in the summer in the south. I'm sure they would be a little more fair than they were yesterday.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI,SC

[Mark Brown]

It's C&Cs fault for not getting a clear resolution from the developer before they designed the green.

I also wouldn't hire them on a flat or dramatic site. They simply don't move dirt, even when it's needed. Example Chechessee Creek - a mediocre course

[Jason Mandel]

Mark-

How many C&C's have you played to make that last statement, have you played Hidden Creek?

Jason

[Mike Nuzzo]

Anthony,
May I ask what were you expecting?
Most of your comments make a lot of sense and have merit - but I can't put them in context as I don't know what your expectations were.

Mark Brown,
What does mediocre mean? - I read that to mean less than average.
I've never been to Chechesse Creek - are you saying there are 9,000 courses in the US better?
Have you been to Hidden Creek?

Cheers

[Jeff_Stettner]

Mark,
I would really like to know what makes Chechessee mediocre.

Thanks in advance.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  Knowing what many GCAers say about Cuscowilla and also some of the accolades the it has received, I was expecting a course that was a Top 25 Modern, a course on the same level at TPC, Kiawah or Harbor Town and not far from Kinloch of Honors. I'm not sure that it should even be in the Top 50. I thought Tullymore, Sea Island, or Kingsley among others were MUCH stronger. If you were to take out Jeff's bunkering, this course wouldn't sniff the Top 25 in Georgia. I expected to be wow, when I thought that #5, #10-12 are worth talking about.
  In in Mark's defense, I agree with him to a certain extent. C&C's courses that are "field courses", (Warren Course, Talking Stick, Hidden Creek and even Chechessee) a worth seeing cause they are different, but not always good golf. Part of C# being good is part of the atmosphere that they present-Walking with caddies, not perfectly manicured, no cart parts, rugged natured.....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Brad Klein]

John, why is it tough for people to have their own opinions? Raters give whatever they want and we aggregate the scores.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  Yes-they still have that plastic ring around their greens. It's there to prevent encroachment from the bermuda grass into the bentgrass greens, though I've never seen it so obvious as it was there. It's also there so that they can alway find there orginal outlines to the greens.
  Golfweek has given Cusco almost all of it's accolades, with Golf Digest awarding in #7 Best New in 1999. Current ratings don't factor into playing the course for me. Rating a golf course is somewhat like this website-It's opinion. I enjoy options, having a "wow" factor, seeing a golf hole that could never be built again-I know I look at things different because I work on a golf course and have been around several course during the contruction process,  just like someone else may be a member, "weekend warrior" or photographer.
  Would I put Secession ahead or Cuscowilla? I've only ever walked Secession, never played, but based on that, YES-Secession seems to have more options, more shot making, more memorable holes-A true "Big Boy's" course...a solid course made up of 15-16 soild holes, not 5-6. There is a reason that they have 700 members, many of which are low single diget handicappers.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Rating a golf course is somewhat like this website-It's opinion.

Brad, you took the words out of my mouth!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Gary_Mahanay]

Tony,

Did C&C put in the encroachment barriers during construction of those greens?  If C&C thought the greens were going to be tiff-eagle or some other ultra-dwarf bermudagrass, then why the need for the encroachment barrier?  Maybe to keep the clay surrounds from sucking the moisture out of the greens?
Never have heard of encroachment barriers in bermudagrass greens constuction.

Gary

[Anthony_Nysse]

Gary,
  I cannot tell you if C&C put them in. I do know that we have a cloth barrier at Long Cove around our greens between our Tifeagle greens and 419 surrounds/approaches.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Gary_Mahanay]

Tony,

I've seen the plastic material that's like 1/16" thick by 18 to 20 inches tall used around bent greens surrounded by 419 or tiff-sport.  Does the cloth barrier do the same thing?  The course that I work at (Gentle Creek Golf Club - Prosper, Texas) has tiff-eagle greens and tiff-sport surrounds and fairways and there was not any barrier put in, and in three and a half years we just edge once a week during growing season.

Gary