If you want to study spectacular greens/surrounds you don't

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

have to travel all the way to St Andrews.

A visit to Seminole will provide an incredible education.

The shape and slope/contour of the greens, along with their unique relationship with adjacent bunkers and slopes is incredible.

Some of the greens, like # 6 are worthy of days of study.

They're brilliant.

The placement of the bunkers around the greens, especially in relationship to the slopes of the greens is unique and eye opening.

The incremental penalties for marginal shots is also worthy of study.

With F&F conditions, and more than a little breeze, the golf course remains challenging, sporty and fun.

And, the golf course changes its personality as the direction of the wind varies.

In playing and studying the golf course, I'm surprised that the green complexes haven't been copied by more architects.

What course's greens function like Seminole's ?

[Bill_McBride]

One of our members is a member at Seminole, and took our head pro to a tournament there last year.  The pro said the other pros and the young hotshot amateurs who played were driving the ball immense distances but it didn't make any difference, the greens are so diabolically fast, crowned, and otherwise demonic that scores were much higher than he would have thought, given the class of the field.

Bunker shots that appeared to be perfectly struck would slowly feed across the green, change direction, and somehow feed into another bunker.

Then the same process would be repeated.

Wash, rinse, repeat.  

I don't know of any other greens of quite that severity, although Pinehurst #2 might do on a day when the greens stimped at 12.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

Just keep in mind that when it was built, Seminole had bermuda greens, and I am 100% positive that Donald Ross never envisioned those greens rolling anywhere near fast enough to produce the kind of results in your post.  That's strictly an example of the greens being too fast for the contours.

Which is not to say that Seminole isn't a great course ... just that their priorities may be misplaced.

[wsmorrison]

Nobody replied on another thread about Seminole.  While examining the golf course from a distance, I've never been there, I think the bunker positioning seems outstanding.  What I can't tell without being there on site is how the bunkers look from a player's perspective.  From the air they look awfully repetitive.  Do you get that sense on the ground?  Are they significantly different from the original look (not grasses but outlines)?

Good point, Tom Doak, about current playability versus original due to agronomic advances.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom - see Pasatiempo for another good example.  It's tragic you had to go in there and flatten the 11th.  Why not the 8th while you were at it?  Neal Meagher got out his inclinometer during Kings Putter 2 and there was a 6-degree slope in the the front half of the green!  That would work with bermuda, sure doesn't with bent at 11!

[Jim Sweeney]

It's been twelve years, probably, since I played Semnole, and hterefore I feel unqualified to comment directly except to say that playing there was one of the great golf days of my life. That was the day that I started to think about how a course was designed- what the intent of the design was.

We can all appreciate Tm Doak's comments about Seminole's greens. Te same could be said for many courses.

Tom, how do you handlw the comittee that wants to keep the greens "original," but also wants the spediest greens in town?

[RJ_Daley]

A visit to Seminole will provide an incredible education.

The shape and slope/contour of the greens, along with their unique relationship with adjacent bunkers and slopes is incredible.

Some of the greens, like # 6 are worthy of days of study.

Pat, unfortunately when you post many of these sort of comments/questions without photos, it probably only invites responses from a very few people.  Isn't Seminole a rather difficult course to get an invite to play?  I'd be interested to know how many folk can actually relate to your question and comment, and actually have played there, let alone spend days studying a green complex, as you query.  

Perhaps one has a far greater opportunity and ability to experience spectacular greens/surrounds at St Andrews TOC, or Wild Horse.

Unfortunately, the course write up here on GCA also has a scarce 4 very low quality photos.  
I lifted this one from one of Whitten's list of top 100. A quick search didn't yield any more photos to give some illustration of what you mean.



Going by the photo, it appears to me that the 6th may have some qualities similar to 10th at Riviera.  It appears narrow and somewhat hourglassed and slightly less angled approach, but with dangerous bunkering front and back.  The apparent cut of the collar would atleast seem to give the backstop of the sandblast rolling from a crown or slope on the green to atleast have a chance to hang-up in the rough cut next to the bunkers.  Now, if it were mowed with putting height of cut right into the bowels of the bunker edging into the green, that would be positively AUZZIELIKE.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

You didn't have to make us jeolous and go all the way to Florida for that study. I loved Seminole but heck you could have come to the Bronx and study

Split Rock with its amazing greens and surrounds.

or

Engineers
Hollywood
Yale
Winged Foot
Fenway
Somerset Hills
Friars Head
NGLA
etc etc etc

When I think of Seminole I don't think of the greens and surrounds but instead the varying conditions of play along with the routing of the holes maximizing the dunes ridges. You never seem to play a similar shot on successive holes and it keeps you on your toes.  The greens and surrounds are outstanding but I think they are even more so at Wannamoisett.

[cary lichtenstein]

Bill:

Just keep in mind that when it was built, Seminole had bermuda greens, and I am 100% positive that Donald Ross never envisioned those greens rolling anywhere near fast enough to produce the kind of results in your post.  That's strictly an example of the greens being too fast for the contours.

Which is not to say that Seminole isn't a great course ... just that their priorities may be misplaced.

Thank you Tom Doak:

I have been saying this for years and finally shut up. Courses designed for a stimp of 5 or 6 are not great because they stimp at 13 or 14 in spots today and repel balls off greens. That is not good design and shouldn't be celebrated as such.

[JESII]

This should be interesting because my view on green speeds is that they are as good an answer (and result from the same thing) to modern driving distances as we've got.

Let's take Seminole: The greens may well have played a bit bigger at their early speeds, but they were approached from further out generally and their recovery areas were not maintained nearly as well. Two characteristics remain king at Seminole; positioning and patience.

Just about every hole is a birdieable hole for an average golfer and a bogeyable holes for a top tier golfer. Must be something to be said for that. Tom Doak, I would think that would suit your views quite well.

[Jim Nugent]

Just keep in mind that when it was built, Seminole had bermuda greens, and I am 100% positive that Donald Ross never envisioned those greens rolling anywhere near fast enough to produce the kind of results in your post.  That's strictly an example of the greens being too fast for the contours.

Is the same true at ANGC?  i.e. did Mac ever conceive that those greens would stimp at 12 or 13?  If not, do the greens at ANGC work, and if so why, despite the huge contours?  

[cary lichtenstein]

Who says the greens at Augusta work? I think they are ridiculus. The pro's prepare for the tournament by putting on their concrete garage floors.

They would have the yips by 30 if they played 25 tournaments under those conditions.

I have played courses with stimps at 13 and thought they were a joke. You could 4 putt from 4 feet if you weren't careful on a downslope.

Beiing careful with a putt is one thing, lagging is fine, but being scared shitless, that is not good golf, nor good architecture.

And what about the 18 handicap? where does he figure into the mix?

[Tom_Doak]

Let me start by saying that Seminole and Augusta National are both 9's on the Doak scale ... they're pretty good.

The conditions which Bill M. described in his first post are extreme -- professionals hitting very good bunker shots and winding up in another bunker.  That is clearly an example of a club going to extremes to prove its course is still tough enough for great players.

I suppose you could say the same thing about The Masters Tournament, if you want to.

I do agree that Dr. MacKenzie never would have imagined his greens at 12 on the Stimpmeter, though there is more possibility of it on bent greens (which Augusta had to begin with) than bermuda (as Seminole had).  

Looking at the question differently, do I imagine that any of the clubs I have built courses for recently would be stupid enough to maintain their greens at a speed of 17 someday?  No, I don't.  I understand that the technology may make it possible someday, but I would hope the clubs had the sense to understand that's not what I meant when we contoured their greens.

Still, I think the contours of the greens at Augusta are better suited to very high speeds than those at Seminole, because at least at Augusta (or the 8th at Pasatiempo) there is always a slope to hit into if you are approaching the hole from the correct angle ... you can take pains to miss below the hole, even if it means missing short of the green or in a bunker.  If you apply silly speeds to a crowned green like Pinehurst or some at Seminole, then there is no "low side" to miss on.

[Chris Moore]

I do agree that Dr. MacKenzie never would have imagined his greens at 12 on the Stimpmeter, though there is more possibility of it on bent greens (which Augusta had to begin with) than bermuda (as Seminole had).  

Tom:

Are you sure that ANGC had bent when they started?  I had always heard that around 1977, the club switched to bent, and that the surface the pros putted on before then was rye grass.  

[Bill_McBride]

I do agree that Dr. MacKenzie never would have imagined his greens at 12 on the Stimpmeter, though there is more possibility of it on bent greens (which Augusta had to begin with) than bermuda (as Seminole had).  

Tom:

Are you sure that ANGC had bent when they started?  I had always heard that around 1977, the club switched to bent, and that the surface the pros putted on before then was rye grass.  

If it was rye grass it was probably an overseed for color, right?

[Chris Moore]

Maybe - but I can't imagine that you would overseed bent grass since I don't think it goes dormant that far south.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Let me start by saying that Seminole and Augusta National are both 9's on the Doak scale ... they're pretty good.

The conditions which Bill M. described in his first post are extreme -- professionals hitting very good bunker shots and winding up in another bunker.  That is clearly an example of a club going to extremes to prove its course is still tough enough for great players.

Tom, that's not quite true.

One has to understand the location of the hole and its relationship to the nearby bunker.

The 6th hole is a perfect example.

That green cants from high left to low right.

If the hole is cut 10 feet from the right side, next to the bunker, an aggressive shot from the left bunker will roll into the right bunker.

Golfers must realize that they're not in Kansas anymore, and that there's a close relationship between F&F conditons, the architecture and the course set up.

You of all people, with your familiarity with the wind at Bandon, should be highly aware of the influence of the wind on a shot to a fast and firm green that slopes away from you.

Most golfers don't understand Seminole because they're not used to playing under those conditions.  If one's learning curve isn't steep, they suffer the consequences.

I can honestly say that the golf course WAS NOT gimmicked up.  But, you had to understand what you were dealing with.
You had to understand F&F and the influence of the wind.

With respect to Donald Ross's intent, years ago, I had a discussion with Stuart Bloch, the former President of the USGA.  I felt that rolling Seminoles greens was inappropriate and that certain speeds were never contemplated by Ross.

However, you must remember that Seminole is a seasonal club, open only for the winter.  And, you must understand that Bermuda goes dormant in the winter, and that automated irrigation systems weren't in existance when Donald Ross designed the golf course.

I doubt that Seminole was ever a 6-7 on the stimp, except under unusual conditions.

The wind and elevated greens keep the grass fairly dry, and dry, dormant bermuda doesn't putt that slow.

I don't think Ross ever intended the greens to putt at 13.
But, I wouldn't scoff at speed of 9-10.

With Rodney Dangerfield (Al Czervik) like putters and perfect golf balls, and high tech equipment, I don't have a problem with the trade off of greens that are firm and putt at 11.

I suppose you could say the same thing about The Masters Tournament, if you want to.

Tom, the problem is that most people evaluate ANGC in the sole context of the Masters, four days in April, when the course has been brought to optimal conditions.

I do agree that Dr. MacKenzie never would have imagined his greens at 12 on the Stimpmeter, though there is more possibility of it on bent greens (which Augusta had to begin with) than bermuda (as Seminole had).  

Again,  you can't make a general statement with respect to course conditions for an entire season, based on four days in April.  ANGC isn't putting at 12 today, and it won't putt at 12 30, 60 and 90 days from now.

Looking at the question differently, do I imagine that any of the clubs I have built courses for recently would be stupid enough to maintain their greens at a speed of 17 someday?  No, I don't.  I understand that the technology may make it possible someday, but I would hope the clubs had the sense to understand that's not what I meant when we contoured their greens.

I think there's a point, and I don't know where it is, where slope and contour are perfectly matched with speed.

Seminole, for a competition this past weekend was pretty close to that point.

Still, I think the contours of the greens at Augusta are better suited to very high speeds than those at Seminole, because at least at Augusta (or the 8th at Pasatiempo) there is always a slope to hit into if you are approaching the hole from the correct angle ... you can take pains to miss below the hole, even if it means missing short of the green or in a bunker.  If you apply silly speeds to a crowned green like Pinehurst or some at Seminole, then there is no "low side" to miss on.

That's more the case at Pinehurst than at Seminole.

Every green at Seminole allows you to hit short, below the hole.  Every green is sloped from high back to low front.
But, you may have a long approach putt if the hole is cut to the rear of the green and you go too far below it.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Who says the greens at Augusta work? I think they are ridiculus.

Have you ever played there ?

The pro's prepare for the tournament by putting on their concrete garage floors.

That's for 4 days out of the entire season.

Why would you judge the greens based on 4 days of play ?

They would have the yips by 30 if they played 25 tournaments under those conditions.

Who cares what they have ?

And, why would you evaluate the greens based on 4 days out of an entire season, especially when the greens are prepared for a special tournament ?

Are you familiar with how the greens play for the membership throughout the season ?

I have played courses with stimps at 13 and thought they were a joke. You could 4 putt from 4 feet if you weren't careful on a downslope.

Which courses ?

Beiing careful with a putt is one thing, lagging is fine, but being scared shitless, that is not good golf, nor good architecture.

Should there be no challenge for golfers who leave their shots above the hole ?

And what about the 18 handicap? where does he figure into the mix?

Most of ANGC's members are mid to high handicaps, and when last I inquired, they were universally happy with the conditions of play at ANGC..

Yet, you, who has never played there, are telling everyone how terrible it is, how fast, diabolical and unfair the greens are.

This is what happens when you watch TV, instead of listening to CBM on Page 295 of "Scotland's Gift"

[David Stamm]

Patrick, with all due respect, why in the world would you recommend to someone who wants to study fascinating greens to forego a trip to a course that is open to all and restricted to none and cite Seminole, one of the most exclusive clubs in the world and make it seem it's a more convienent alternative than crossing the pond.

Sorry, but as they say in the south, that dog don't hunt!

[Jim Nugent]

Let me start by saying that Seminole and Augusta National are both 9's on the Doak scale ... they're pretty good.

If ANGC un-did enough of its huge number of "improvements"/alterations, could it be a 10?  If so, what would the club have to do to accomplish that?  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick, with all due respect, why in the world would you recommend to someone who wants to study fascinating greens to forego a trip to a course that is open to all and restricted to none and cite Seminole, one of the most exclusive clubs in the world and make it seem it's a more convienent alternative than crossing the pond.

Sorry, but as they say in the south, that dog don't hunt!

David, with all due respect, why in the world would you read my opening post without any degree of reading comprehension ?

Where did I state or suggest that they should forego a trip to TOC ?

Please reread the opening post.

Thanks

[David Stamm]

 
 Pat, my reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. You are assuming that everyone has the choice between the two. Your post seems to suggest that it's not necessary to go all the way to the TOC, when Seminole provides just as fascinating greens. Perhaps the thread should've cited `If you have the access to this very exclusive club, you will find just as interesting greens as at TOC.'