Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was reading Forrest Richardson's and Mark Fine's new book,
"Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards".

In Chapter 3 they identify "Twenty famous Hazards".

My thoughts were that it might be an excellent exercise to discuss all twenty of the hazards they listed, in order.

If you're a fan or student of architecture, you'll find this book more than interesting.

Since not everyone has the book or immediate access to it, let's defer discussion of the twenty hazards until March 1, 2006.   This will provide the time to obtain or become familiar with the twenty hazards listed.

They are:

The Island hole, # 17 at Sawgrass
Rae's Creek
The Road Hole Bunker
The Pacific Ocean - The 18th at Pebble Beach
The Church Pews - Oakmont
The Pacific Ocean- The 16th at Cypress Point
The DA - The 10th at Pine Valley
Hell's Half Acre -  The 7th at Pine Valley
Hell Bunker - TOC
The Pacific Ocean - The 8th at Pebble Beach
The Dell - The 5th at Lahinch
The Cardinal Bunker - Prestwick
The Redan
Chocolate Drops - Myopia
Mangrove Lake - The Cape Hole - Mid Ocean
The Himalayas
The Green Bunker - The 6th at Riviera
The 4th Hole Bunker - Royal St George's
The Principals Nose - TOC
That Damned Bunker - St George's Hill

After discussion of the above twenty, we can select another twenty hazards to discuss.

I highly recommend obtaining Forrest's and Mark's new book.
You'll enjoy it.

[Tom Dunne]

Very cool. Congrats to Forrest and Mark! Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471683671/sr=1-1/qid=1138763224/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1859466-2588832?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[Kyle Harris]

To me, Rae's Creek is a function of the green angle and size, and the location of the bunkers around the green.

If the green were any deeper or angled differently, or the bunkers placed differently, the creek probably wouldn't enter into a players' thoughts as much as it does.

Are we considering the pond to the left of the 11th green as a part of Rae's Creek like it was originally?

[Jordan Wall]

Pat, do you mind discussing one for starters??

I would like to know why they lowered the lip on the road hole bunker.  To me it seems it would take away part of why the bunker was there.  It looks like a great bunker, but what is lost from it by lowering the lip on it??

Thanks for the book suggestion too!

[Bill_McBride]

After my first round at TOC in May 2004, when my play of the 14th hole approximated that of one of Dr MacKenzie's players -- I think player A but need to reference his text and am out of town -- where I played left of the fairway off the tee and carefully skirted Hell Bunker on my second and made a careful par with a bump and run onto the green, I was grievously disappointed the next year at the Open when every player -- EVERY PLAYER!   -- flew Hell Bunker with no problems when the hole was 618 yards from an OB tee.

Hell was irrelevant.  MacKenzie was irrelevant.

If there was ever a case to control the golf ball, this was it.

Sorry for the run on sentence.  You may fathom the depth of my discontent with this entire situation.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, do you mind discussing one for starters??

YES

Let's wait until more participants on GCA.com can obtain the book.

I would like to know why they lowered the lip on the road hole bunker.  To me it seems it would take away part of why the bunker was there.  It looks like a great bunker, but what is lost from it by lowering the lip on it??

Again,

Let's hold off on any discussions until March 1, 2006.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

I am very surprised Woking's bunker is not on that list. All in all considering the circumstances it very well may be golf architecture's most significant bunker. Apparently it represented a significant "sea-change" in the philosophy of inland man-made architecture.

[T_MacWood]

Its a good list. I'm a little surprised the bunker at Woking wasn't included too, although its inspiriation (the principal's nose) was included.

What was the criteria for the list?

[PThomas]

got my copy yesterday Patrick.....only had time to scan it quickly, but is an attractive volume that seems very worthwhile

[Paul_Turner]

Surely "The Himalayas" is the bunker at St Enodoc's 6th?

[Mark_Fine]

I like the idea of discussing the top hazards.  It could be fun.

Regarding the bunker at Woking, it surprisingly never came up in our polling.  As far as how we selected the 20 hazards, we invited 100 well traveled and seasoned 'golf people' to partake in a survey. Our group included officials from golf organizations across the world (30%), golf architecture enthusiasts and writers (25%), greenkeepers (20%), golf professionals (18%), and golf course architects (7%). Summaries of the responses to the various questions are scattered in charts throughout the book. One of the questions we asked was, 'In your opinion, what are the five most famous hazards in golf?' We did not ask about 'best' in this question as our intent was to focus on 'famous'. In the end we received 75 responses from our pool of 100. We selected the 10 most popular choices from our panel and then selected ten of our own choices to round out the list.  As you can imagine there are lots of famous hazards to choose from.  

Mark

[SPDB]

I'm curious about the Dell (5th at Lahinch). How does this relate to the book's title of Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards? Where is the hazard there?

Paul - I, too, was curious which "Himalayas" they were referring to - RSG? St. Enodoc? The putting course at St. Andrew's  

My guess is its RSG, although St. Enodoc is more imposing.

[Mark_Fine]

SPDB,
If you don't think that huge sand dune on #5 is a hazard then you need to read our book    Some of the best "hazards" are informal ones not defined by the Rules of Golf.
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Bumping this for the sake of remembering.  

[Tom_Doak]

I don't have the book yet -- amazing for someone who contributed to it -- but since pretty much everyone is familiar with the 17th at the TPC at Sawgrass, why don't we start there?

I can tell you Pete Dye's view on the subject circa 1982, when I was there for three days of the tournament.  He said to me that it was an 8,500 square foot green, and from 130 yards away, that a professional ought to hit the green about 98% of the time.  If they didn't, he had gotten in their head.  I was left with the impression that's what the hole is all about.

There is also one subtlety to the hole that is practically never discussed:  is the player just aiming for the middle of the green, or does he have the guts to play more toward the flag?  If it wasn't surrounded by water they would always be playing right toward the flag.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

As per Pat's request, we are two weeks premature, but I'll second your suggestion.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Kyle.  Hopefully a few more guys are getting their copy.  A number of you have contacted me to get one and Forrest and I appreciate the interest.  I hope we can have some fun with it.  

Forrest and I received a comment from a few superintendent's during an autograph session at the GIS in Atlanta that they felt we put together something good for the game of golf.  That was probably that most satisfying thing that has happened to me since I got involved with this business.  

[Phil Benedict]

The 17th at Sawgrass is kind of gimmicky but it serves its purpose.  Make or break shot at the end of a round.  It works as a championship hole because it is so easy without the hazard.  Lack of a bailout makes it a bit dubious for recreational players.  I'll bet more than half find the hazard.  One hole out of 18 is ok so long as it is not replicated too often.  I am playing PGA West next week.  That has an island green par 3, doesn't it?  I'll use a cheap ball for that shot - no Pro V1's.

[Mark_Fine]

Phil,
#17 at PGA West is a longer tougher hole.  The wind can howl out there.  You have the right strategy about using a cheap ball.  Bobby Jones made a similar comment once when playing to the island green on #6 at East Lake.  When asked by a playing partner how he played this hole, he commented, "With an old ball".  
Mark

[Jordan Wall]

Pat, do you mind discussing one for starters??

I would like to know why they lowered the lip on the road hole bunker.  To me it seems it would take away part of why the bunker was there.  It looks like a great bunker, but what is lost from it by lowering the lip on it??

Thanks for the book suggestion too!

This thread has not gotten too many hits over the past hours so I hope you guys dont mind me changing the topic a little bit to the Road Hole.  Thanks guys!!

[Kyle Harris]

Pat, do you mind discussing one for starters??

I would like to know why they lowered the lip on the road hole bunker.  To me it seems it would take away part of why the bunker was there.  It looks like a great bunker, but what is lost from it by lowering the lip on it??

Thanks for the book suggestion too!

This thread has not gotten too many hits over the past hours so I hope you guys dont mind me changing the topic a little bit to the Road Hole.  Thanks guys!!

March 1 people... March 1

[Forrest Richardson]

The Dell is, as a whole, an amazing "hazard". As Mark states, it has nothing to do with the rules of golf (e.g., "a hazard..."), but it strikes me as a poster child for what we were trying to get across in the writing.

As for Tom D. not getting a copy, that is probably an oversight. Mark, should we send him one? Where would we send it? Did he take the job opening with Doug Carrick?

[Bill_McBride]

Bringing this one up.  March 1st not too far away now!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are you ready to discuss # 1 ?

The hazards presented at the 17th hole at Sawgrass.

[Tom_Doak]

(copied from above to get things moving)

I can tell you Pete Dye's view on the subject circa 1982, when I was there for three days of the tournament.  He said to me that it was an 8,500 square foot green, and from 130 yards away, that a professional ought to hit the green about 98% of the time.  If they didn't, he had gotten in their head.  I was left with the impression that's what the hole is all about.

There is also one subtlety to the hole that is practically never discussed:  is the player just aiming for the middle of the green, or does he have the guts to play more toward the flag?  If it wasn't surrounded by water they would always be playing right toward the flag.

P.S. to Mark:  Thanks for the copy of the book!