Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)

[Tom Huckaby]

No hassles Ralph - I appreciate the effort and interest.

And some day, I hope for that to happen - that is, I hope to hit the real Mercedes of this era.  But we shall take baby steps for now.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

I've now hit quite a few balls with my hickories, played the little 3-hole practice course near my office a few times, and well... it was time to test these on the real golf course.

Thus I played ventured at dawn on Saturday to the back nine of the beautiful and challenging Santa Teresa muni. (Dawn is the only time guys like me can play - and with baseball practice commencing at 10, sadly pace of play there would allow for 9 holes only).

I made 8 pars and one double.  38.  Last time out there with modern clubs, I shot 40.

Yes, I am rather hooked.  

I've found I can hit my brassie about 230 - when teed up I can carry it about 220.  Of the deck it's hard to get up in the air, so the carry distance is short, but I can hit a low screamer that runs like crazy.

I have a mid-iron that's good for about 180... mashie can go 160 max... mashie-niblick is about 120 max... niblick takes up all the rest.

It has been damn fun creating shots, and these aren't all THAT hard to hit.  The misses are severely punished, for sure.  But it one has proper concentration and swings with control and restraint, good results are possible.

I am putting better with my new-ancient Bonnie B (Calamity Jane type putter) than I have with any modern putter in recent times.  There is a damn good chance ole Bonnie makes it into the modern bag.  

In any case, really the hardest thing to do is adjust to the negative bounce of the niblick... that is, it's meant to dig, rather than bounce, so huge divots are unavoidable.  Methinks my next purchase might be a Tom Stewart wedge, which would have some bounce... the feelers are out already.

In any case, so far so good re this experiment.  In fact I am having so much fun with this, I have no current desire to return to the modern clubs.  My next two scheduled rounds are as follows though:

1.  2/20 at The Preserve (Fazio course near Monterey) with Jim Lewis...

2. 3/4 at Callippe Preserve - GCA outing with many Bay Area stalwarts...

Dare I use the hickories for these?  In fairness I don't think I can on 2/20 - very tough call - don't want to appear to psycho in front of Jim and his client.

But 3/4... it is very tempting....

TH

ps - one final caveat though:  not that I am all that great of a player - obviously - but I really would recommend hickories only for better players - say 12 hdcp or lower - unless you REALLY don't care about results.  I'd be interested in Ralph's take on this.  Think of them like blade irons - which they are - there's a reason high cappers use "game improvement" clubs.  These are "game-DISimprovement"... can't see how that would be a good thing.

[Andy Hughes]

Err, unless I am missing something Tom, why wouldn't you play with your new clubs on 3/4?

PS Thanks for the update--I have been curious how this would play out. And I remain curious how it'll continue to play out over time...

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy:

This is a group of 7 other GCAers, out of whom I think I've only played with two previously.  It's gonna take a LOT of ego check to be constantly out-driven and come in with a score that doesn't accurately reflect my ability.  Because sure, I did manage that 38 the other day, but god that took a LOT of effort and concentration... and it included a few PAINFULLY awful shots, rescued by several long putts holed.

Another issue here is that these aren't exactly made for long carries - I'm gonna need to play tees considerably up from what I'd otherwise do, and from what these guys are gonna want to do most likely.  That's another ego check I am not quite used to, let's say.

If a few other guys would use hickories with me, then bingo, it's a done deal.  Me as the only one?

I've come to believe I am almost egoless about golf... but it's not 100% just yet.

 

[Andy Hughes]

It's gonna take a LOT of ego check to be constantly out-driven and come in with a score that doesn't accurately reflect my ability.

Hell, you are looking at this all wrong. Now, in my world, I've had to accept those conditions (outdriven, outscored etc) and just continue to muddle on.
But you have a built-in excuse!  It's not you, it's those damn archaic, unwieldy clubs.  You have nothing to lose. If you are beaten or outdriven, the clubs did it, who could expect otherwise? But if you win.....

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy:

That is a very good point, and in fact that part of this was part of my speculation previously as to why Hickories would be a lure for many.

So great call there!

It just does seem weird to me to be the only one using these.

But Ran does it all the time...

Perhaps I just answered my own question though.  The LAST thing any of us should want is to be like him.

 

[Andy Hughes]

But Ran does it all the time...

Perhaps I just answered my own question though.  The LAST thing any of us should want is to be like him.

Well, there you have it!  

(and PS--no idea what your course was like, but I admit to being shocked by your score with the hickories the other day)

[Tom Huckaby]

Don't be too shocked by this score.  ST back nine requires exactly one carry, that being the 2nd shot on the par 5 #11.  I played middle tees, about 3200 yards.  I hit 4 greens and had only 13 putts.

It was an exceedingly good round.  I doubt I'll match it any time soon, score-wise.  Like I say, I made a lot of putts.  Make those missed and we're talking more like 43 or so.  Still pretty good, but nothing shocking.

What has surprised me is that the distance loss really isn't all that much.  My modern driver gets me 250-260 max.  My modern 2iron is about 205.

What's really difficult about these clubs are the blade heads on the irons, and of course tiny sweetspot on the woods.  The shafts actually feel pretty damn good.  In fact somehow put a modern clubhead on a hickory shaft and at least for the irons, you'd have damn well perfect golf clubs.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Huck, my last round at CPC was the evil Dr. Moriarity and his hickories & John Bernhardt vs my buddy and me, and we managed to get drilled 2&1!  Of course JB's driver onto #16 hurt.......

It is really good for the rest of your game to play with the hickories occasionally; you CANNOT cast the club and hit any kind of shot.  Is that your experience as well?

And I too love my little blade putter.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - interesting - it was Dave M. himself who posted very recently about a lack of fun when he was the only one using hickories - saying specifically that playing two different games was neither fun for him nor his playing partners, in that it ruined the match.  In that CPC example, I can see the great lure of wanting to try that there - as well as the safety blanket of having sweet-swinging JB as a partner - overcome these issues.  

Re casting the club, well... I haven't figured out yet really what works and what doesn't.  I'm still pretty new into this.  Whatever the hell I am doing I'm hitting the ball pretty darn well.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

I guess what I'm saying is I can't rush the swing at all with those shafts, and it makes retaining the angle a lot easier.

Now I've confused even me!

[Tom Huckaby]

AHA!

Yes, one must indeed swing VERY slowly and VERY smoothly.

But think back to our rounds together... who do you know who does that so "well" he'd put his playing partners to sleep if he didn't also talk so much.

 

I really was born 75 years too late.

TH

[Doug Siebert]

Tom,

What ball you using with those?

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug - the veterans all say it's best to use a soft ball of some sort - but interestingly what guys like Ralph use is the ProV1!  Apparently Titleist recommends the SoLo.  There's info about this on Ralph's site, hickorygolf.com.

I used the ProV1 for my round at Santa Teresa.  I've also tried the Maxfli A10.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

Tom,
Your first round with hickories sounds like my first, scrambling lke crazy and making some putts to shoot my 9 hole handicap.
Glad you had a good time.
Ask Randy what the loft was on that Brassie, I wonder if it might not be closer to a driver. Many of them are. You probably need a spoon at about 18 degrees.
Do you know the loft of the Niblick? Most American mades are around 50 degrees. Stewarts are usually either 51-52 or 55-56 degrees. You could probably use a 55-56 degree Stewart Niblick. It will improve your sand game and help with chipping on todays faster greens.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hi Ralph!

Randy said the brassie loft was 14 degrees - so not totally undoable off the turf, but yep, among the next purchases will be a spoon.

I believe this niblick is 50.. and oh yes, I've become hooked enough that I am shopping mightily for a Stewart wedge in the 55-56 range - that would really help as well.

I also want a jigger, only because I do love that name.

So I am most definitely in the shopping mode - only man I still can't spend THAT much money on this.  It will be interesting.

Oh, one more thing - I took your advice from the site and used Lexol cleaner and conditioner on the grips - that worked wonders - man they feel as good as new.

Oh yes, this is VERY fun... dare I say addictive....

TH

ps - I've left a message for Randy, but if you know where I can get a Stewart Niblick without breaking the bank, I'd love some more advice... email to huckaby@yahoo-inc.com.  There are a few on Ebay right now, but I'm having no luck getting enough info to pull the trigger.

[Andy Hughes]

If it is not too indelicate to ask, how much has it cost to assemble your basic set? If that is too indelicate, totally understood.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy - it's a very fair question, I asked the same thing of Ralph, and of Randy Jensen, from whom I bought my sticks.

It turns out that one can spend as much or as little as one wants, more or less.  That is, it's just like modern clubs - some are fantastic and expensive, some are basically playable and cheap.  The very best set of 14 clubs could set one back $2000 or more.  Basic playable only clubs can be had for $20 each, or less.  Guys like Randy and Ralph refurbish clubs and make them playable and Randy sells them for anywhere in between those figures.

Given this was intended to be a lark, I asked Randy what I could get for $300, and he gave me 6 pretty darn nice clubs for that.  They are absolutely playable, as you see.  BUT... if I was gonna get into competition with these, of course I'd want to get into higher end stuff.  I may well do that, we shall see.

Go to hickorygolf.com - all questions are answered there - it's a FANTASTIC resource.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

If you are interested in some clubs, contact Randy. I don't do much club restoration anymore. Mostly I just try to get correct info out there.

Tom, if you are looking at the Pott Niblick it is probably lighter than you would want. It is faintly stamped as a Ladies club. I would (and did) pass on it.

[Bill_McBride]

I was doing okay cost wise until I bought the mashie niblick in Auchterlonie's shop in St. Andrews during last year's Open.    But a beautiful club!  I too am looking for a spoon.  I hit really solid worm burners with the brassie.

[Tom Huckaby]

If you are interested in some clubs, contact Randy. I don't do much club restoration anymore. Mostly I just try to get correct info out there.

Tom, if you are looking at the Pott Niblick it is probably lighter than you would want. It is faintly stamped as a Ladies club. I would (and did) pass on it.

Ralph - thanks.  And you are doing one HELL of a job getting the info out.

Re the current niblicks on Ebay, did you see the one stamped G. Hutchinson, Royal Porthcawl?  I'd love to buy that one, but there's no picture of the grip or shaft, both of which I need to be playable, having no talent for restoration, nor the tools to enable such!  It's item  7217839847.

Bill - I believe I am VERY fortunate to live where I do right now.  If I were anywhere near Auchterlonie's the pocketbook damage might be irreversable.  
 

[RSLivingston_III]

Tom,
The Hutchison Niblick could be a good club. The only problem is the condition. It should be a $65-75 club assuming it has a good shaft.
BUT, don't be surprised if it goes over $100.
The peeling chrome won't hurt it's playability.

[Andy Hughes]

Somehow, it seems wrong to have a set of 14 hickories. I don't know why, but it just seems appropriate to carry a set of 5-7 clubs. So Tom, I know yours was a cost-based decision but it seems 'right'.
I am sure I am missing the obvious here, but what exactly is the allure of using hickories vs using an old set if Staffs and a persimmon driver or any kind of older clubs that might be laying around the attic?  Is it the feel, or the look of hickories?  The sense of history?  Are any of the clubs being used actually very old or are they new clubs built similarly to old hickories?

[RSLivingston_III]

Andy, The 14 club rule came into being because of the players in the last ten years of the hickory era. Hagen was reputedly carrying 20 something clubs in his set. Jones shows a 15 club set in his book.
The average current hickory players set is probably about 11-12. Tom looks to be headed to 9-10 clubs quickly. I carry 13 or 14 depending on the course.
With the course lengths where they are at, you need more choices in shotmaking. You can work clubs with shots into open front greens, but when you have carries you need more precise distance control.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy, I hear ya re 14 clubs seeming "wrong" for this - the whole idea is also trying to work the ball, etc.  But heed Ralph's words re what the old guys did... jeez if it's good enough for Bobby Jones it's certainly good enough for me.

Ralph's right also - I have 6 clubs now, and I can see landing at 9 or 10 pretty quickly.  I doubt I'd get to 14 unless I start playing hickory tournaments... which is unlikely.  But if I did, well just for the reasons Ralph said, 13 or 14 would make sense.

Because remember we're also playing today courses....

Ralph - thanks for the info re the Hutchinson.  $100 did seem steep for that.

TH