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Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2006, 02:53:12 PM »
I was with Tom yesterday at Pacific Grove. We played with Brian, who is a much better golfer than I am but we played a course that Huckaby and I are much more familiar with. It is a course where having knowledge of the course can really pay off.

Brian can hit the driver, and if you tell him where to aim, every time but once he hit it exactly where you tell him to aim. I obviously should have been pointing out much more aggressive lines for him than I did.

We got to the 14th hole at Pacific Grove. Whenever playing with a long hitter I would always tell them to hit less than a driver. The fairway really narrows at about 250 yards from the tee. I told Brian, and as usual he hit a perfect 4 wood to the perfect spot. But it did get me thinking about the strategy. He can hit the drive almost exactly where he wants, so why not bomb away? His strategy could have been hit the driver down the neck and face only a wee pitch to the green.

As it was, he hit 4 wood, I hit one of my few good drives of the day, we were close to the same spot, I hit on the front side of the green, he hit his iron about 12 feet from the pin. I sunk a bomb for a birdie and he missed his 12 footer for a tap-in par. Our match was already over, so I just chalked up my lone birdie as me performing better when no pressure is on me. But I did feel a pang of guilt as possibly giving Brian bad advice.

Then he hit his first  wayward drive on 16 making me feel a bit better about my advice.

My feeling toward PG is that it is a course where it used to not make any sense to bomb away. But it has been a long time since I played with a really good player there. I was surprised by what I saw Brian do there yesterday.

So I'm curious, with the better younger players, would you hit a little less club when faced with a fairway that narrows around where you hit driver, or would you bomb away trusting you rarely hit it wayward? The different in approach, at least on this hole was probably about a wedge from 120 yards or a pitch from within 50 yards.

My feeling is more than length, the ball and equipment are straighter and more consistent than they used to be. In theory, that should help the hacks like me more, but what has happened is younger, good players swing different, much more all-out on every swing, with less fear than in days past. Davis Love as a youngster was just as long as any of the kids coming up, but he didn't find success on Tour until he learned to swing at less than 100 percent. Now there is much less reason to swing as anything less than a 100 percent.

Dan King
Quote
Fifty percent of the fairways we play on today are better than 90 percent of the greens we played 30 years ago.
 --Jim Ferree

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2006, 02:55:27 PM »
Sorry guys, had to go do that work thing and disappear for a while. I am just sneaking back on for a minute but won't be really back until after 6pm EST. Guess you shouldn't complain about having work.
I see there are more than a few questions to address.

Shoot me an e-mail if you like and I can answer them this evening.
ralph@ hickorygolf.com

Got to go.....
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reigned-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2006, 03:19:54 PM »
Quote
Just do understand I am far far far far from so good at this game that the challenge has ceased with modern clubs - that's not what this is about.
Naw, I understood that, I just didn't word it well myself.

For me, the choice has been to carry fewer clubs, as it has enabled me to accomplish what it sounds like you are trying to do. I bring my driver and 4 or 5 irons and a putter (I am not afflicted with the too long or too straight issue with driver many of you seem to be).
Maybe a lot of us will end up with two sets: an everyday 'fun' set and a 'competition' set.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2006, 04:26:06 PM »
Dan:

It was on 14 tee yesterday that this whole thing crystallized.  I heard you advise Brian to hit less than driver, and my thinking was "well, he's right, but no way I'm gonna do that, driver is my straightest club."  And of course Brian hits the ball longer and straighter than me...

But you make a GREAT point:  for the younger bigger hitters, the whole concept of throttling back is indeed a waste.  Why bother with today's forgiving clubs meaning a mis-hit still goes far and not all that wide... Not to mention the "flog" issue bombing past all the hazards...

In any case, for us normal guys the issues are different.  But still, 14 tee yesterday is where this really hit home.

BTW, I posted a little recap of such in the Styme Returns thread... you may be interested....

 ;)

Andy - I've gone the playing with less clubs route.  The issue there is if you don't take driver, you're just basically playing a longer course... and the whole concept of "manufacturing shots" with the irons gets old pretty quickly, for me anyway.  Dan has gone this route also and to this day carries only 6-7 clubs.  I got down to 7 myself before I returned to the whole 14.  Nope, I want something completely different.... And btw, I'm talking only 6-7 clubs in my hickory set anyway.

Ralph - many thanks - I may bug you by email after all.

TH

Alfie

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2006, 05:48:02 PM »
Mr Huckaby,

I just knew you had real golf enthusiasm in your blood, and now you're exuding the beginnings of true wisdom too  ;)

The logic of hickory play is so misunderstood by so many - and not just on here at gca.com. For me, the logic rests in showing the modern golfer (through his/her own experience) the immense FUN that can be gained by taking that fearful step back in time. Many factors become an insight or education to anyone who try's the hickory game whether they use Pro V's or gutta's with their "sticks" ; whether they only have a couple of clubs to use ; whether they play a long or short course ; and even whether they get all dressed up for the occasion, or not as the case may be.
Encouraging golfers to try hickory for FUN should not include PURISM ! Although for those who wish to carry out the exercise properly, and authentically, then that's a different matter and needs, dare I say it, some specialised help  ;)
Beware of anyone who castigates the use of replica's, cause they're talking bullshit !

You're absolutely right to question yourself re - the architecture ; the shot making etc... but for me, the greatest lesson to be learned from hickory play is the effects of distance ON EACH INDIVIDUAL as they play and learn ! AND THAT IS GOOD FOR THE SPORT TOO !
I've personally used the hickory experience (unashamedly) as a tool to drive home the perils of distance in the sport. Some on here may think that I'm some sort of fanatic ? Well maybe I am, but I've never said much more than - that golfers should at least try hickory play once in their lifetime for the FUN factor. Of course, once tried, then every golfer sees the light. The more who learn that the sport is far, far more important than their own ego's - then the sooner sanity will prevail and we can get golf back on track with a rollback ball..........BUT STRUCK WITH MODERN IMPLIMENTS just keep things on the easy side.  :)

I've all but given up with the Hickory adventure but I'll post my web for anyone who finds this interesting.
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/Hickory

I'm sure Ralph will steer the American contingent to the hickory hotspots over there, including Lewis Keller's www.oakhurstlinks.com

I also hear that a hickory course is in development at Hill O' Tarvit in Cupar, Fife ? Aye - it's only 8 miles from St Andrews !
So it shouldn't be too much of a strain to tear yourselves away from Heaven for a few hours on your next visit  ;D


Alfie.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2006, 05:51:05 PM »
Alfie:

Well, for a guy like me wisdom is bitterly fought for and precious infrequently acquired... so thanks.

 ;D

The bottom line here is indeed FUN.  I sure as heck would not be trying to make any statements, though I respect you who do.  For me, I am missing a part of the fun of golf these days... and I want it back.

Like I say, I doubt I will ever go 100% hickory, but man it does intrigue me more and more as time goes on.

Cheers!

TH

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2006, 07:05:49 PM »
Tom,

For me the draw of hickories is all about control and restraint.  Trying to do anything consistently at 80% has always been harder for me than going full out.  With hickories this is the only approach you have to take until you develop Livingstonesque timing and coordination.  Also, since the probablity of a less than ideal result is increased, the recognition of areas that will be difficult to play from become more prominent and require much more respect.  Its kinda like how minor league baseball is so much more fun than the majors, because there's no such thing as a routine ground ball in the minors.  With modern clubs I might flirt with the stray bunker hear and there, with hickories I make sure that if I do miss I miss away from them.  The need to miss the trouble requires the use of some serious and deliberate shot shaping that, when done with success, is the essence of feel.

As for buying clubs.  You and you alone must touch and look at the clubs for playability, weighting, and feel.  When you find one of your clubs you will know it instantly.  I haven't swung my new James Spencer Niblick yet but I know it is perfect for me.

Good Luck!

JT
Jim Thompson

Alfie

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2006, 08:06:05 PM »
Tom,

Get yourself out there and play some - and learn. The more you learn - the more statements you'll want to make !
But nobody needs to go to extreme's and scrap their modernies. Tip : If having a bounce game (non comp) throw a mashie / mashie niblick into the bag and just try a few shots on the way round. Borrow one from a pal - and try not to break it  :o Make sure you use a balata and not a modern rock ! and swing sl...o...o...w  ;)
Maybe you'll turn into a connoisseur like Jim, Ran, Mike Sweeney  :) and hundreds (000's) of others around the globe.

One thing's for sure. You wont find a FEEL factor like it when compared to your modern clubs.

Alfie.

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2006, 08:35:39 PM »


Does the use of hickories and/or other older technology absolve one of any shot responsibility?  That is, you cease EXPECTING to hit good shots or make good scores or whatever...

TH

Tom -

Perhaps the attraction to playing hickory is if you hit a good shot you get to take full credit for it.  You made the shot, no help from  Karsten or Eli.

You can expect to hit a good shot but if you catch it a little off center and it ends up missing the green you also must take full blame.

Isn't that the essence of golf?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2006, 08:43:17 PM »
....hell Tom, when you get bored with your hickories [or break enough of them ;)], you can play a match with me and my three spoons [not a piece of metal on any]....we wail away from the ladies and avoid bunkers like the dickens...fun stuff.

I made a bag but don't use it anymore as I just carry the three and keep my balls in a homemade sporran...don't use tees as I find the first cut off the side of the tee to be usually about right....hell, I'm a hoot alright, at least to me, which means I find fewer and less matches [I've given up trying to find players at night]....so I just walk around muttering Shivas...Shivas, is that you out there?
...sometimes I be thinkin the game is losing its Gl :'(ry.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

DMoriarty

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2006, 09:04:54 PM »
I started playing with hickories over a year ago and thought I would throw in the perspective of a non-low handicap.  I still play with both modern and hickories but generally prefer the hickories.  

There arent as many disadvantages as one might think.  One can still hit it high,  put spin on the ball,  hit over some carries.  So in this sense it is very similar to modern equipment.  

That being said, the feeling is very different than playing with modern clubs.  I just feel much more connected with what I am doing when I play my hickories, even when I play poorly.  They seem more like tools and I feel like I am an apprentice craftsman, trying to become skilled.  They allow the golfer to work the ball-- even the modern ball-- and there is something about having them in your hands that opens up the imagination.  

Jim Thompson hit the ball on squarely the face when he said it is all about control and restraint.  There is no overpowering the ball with hickories, at least not for me.  I wish I had learned with hickories in the firstplace.  It is hard to erase so many years of jerks and flails.

As far as strategy goes, it seems much more important with hickories.   One is generally giving up quite a bit of distance and offhits really cost you, so being in the correct position becomes all that more important.  But also, layups somehow seem more skillful.  And risks and rewards become much more apparent.  

A few examples for you Tom, from Rustic.  At Rustic No. 2 one must hit the ball perfect and on the left side if one hopes to get the ball  onto the green in two.  If the drive isnt successful, then it probably becomes a three shot hole, and one must decide where to lay up to get the best shot at whatever pin.  On No. 5 one must try to keep the ball on the very left side of the fairway, and hit it well to have a good shot about getting over the wash in two.  

Basically, strategic options are amplified and their stakes feel higher.  

The only problem with Hickories that I can see is that

1) The forced carries at some modern courses are not built with hickories in mind.  

2) Playing with players with non-hickories can get akward, especially when selecting tees and/or trying to play from the same tees.  

3) Although I hear it is pretty uncommon, my swing is so bad that I have broken a few.





paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2006, 09:20:56 PM »
Dan or is it David.....I have always been a hard striker of the ball...oh I could sweep it conceptually but only to about a foot away from the ball and then it was payback time.

That is why I am down to three spoons [ one of which is basically my putter but I do use it on certain approaches up to 120 yards].

...just to preserve my little spoon family my swing now probably more closely resembles a waltz than anything, with my hands touching lightly and all the while thinking don't crush this bitch........silly game really ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2006, 09:27:45 PM »
This is fantasic stuff guys and I really do appreciate it.  So much to respond to...

Jim T.:  YES!  Control and restraint -that's what I've been trying to get at and you really hit the nail on the head.  I just don't seem to need either with the modern clubs, especially off the tee.  I miss those requirements.  Re purchasing clubs, I guess I get that it's a personal thing given this is SO much about feel... but man we just plain have no shops around here where I can even look at hickories!  So what is a man to do?

Alfie - those who've played with me know swinging SLOWLY is not an issue for me - I'd say I put people to sleep with my deliberate tempo,, but then my swing is also so"unique" if they did fall asleep they'd get nightmares.  But anyway, I have been told that's a good thing with hickories... so the excitement builds...

Paul - that match sounds great to me.  Funny the weirder golf gets the more I seem to enjoy it.

Mike - RIGHT ON!  Oh man, credit for good shots while not having responsibility for bad - who wouldn't want that?  I've been pondering that for awhile as well.. I just hadn't at all thought of the POSITIVE side of it!

Dave M. - fantastic, many thanks.  Those examples from Rustic resonate for me big time - it's stuff like that that I have missed.  I also understand the problems you set forth as well... that will be tough to overcome, and have to be among the reasons that I can never see going 100% hickory.  I am a social animal.  And sadly I do play too many courses with too many forced carries.  But those can be avoided when hickory is the order of the day...

Great,great stuff. Thanks again. Now I just have to solve the issue of how to get my hands on some, and my re-education will begin in earnest.

TH

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2006, 09:29:08 PM »
Other than Jim Thompson, there are a bunch of people on this site I have GOT to meet. Jim and I have to hook up for a second time.
Oh, by the way, that course of his doesn't suck too bad for playing hickories. Gotta have another shot at the Redan.

One of the things I was trying to get going at the last golf collectors meeting was getting the guys that are into pro classics (1930-1970-ish) to start up play with those clubs like the hickory people have. There are a LOT of those sets floating around and I think they are a very similar experiance to playing pre-1930 clubs. I don't think it takes much more than $100 to get a set. I think I would be tempted to break my 8 year streak of only playing hickories to get the old 71 Staff's and 58 Macgregor woods out again a go for it. They were my transitional set. Oh, and a 58 bullseye purchashed from the original owner.

Why do I think I will regret posting this.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 10:04:01 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2006, 09:48:34 PM »
Ralph.....maybe you could help me find a newer set to play with....something with a piece of metal on them.....like a tack, brad, wire or screw maybe?



Soleplates or inserts might be a little rad....I need to come back slow.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2006, 09:54:34 PM »
Paul,
where are you located?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2006, 10:34:12 PM »
....St Simons Island, Ga.

912 222 1616
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2006, 11:40:47 AM »
Just to wrap this one up, note that Ralph Livingston through his web site pointed me to Randy Jensen of Classic Golf in Omaha, NE... what a great resource these guys are... and Randy has set me up with a very reasonable, very playable 6-club set which will be winging it's way to me today.

I can't wait to try out my new Thistle... not to mention the Bonnie B putter.... and the brassie looks so cool I am freakin' drooling.

Yahoooooooooooooo!

TH

ps - yet another great thing to come out of Nebraska.  Interesting.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2006, 12:33:21 PM »
Tom,
Glad to hear they are going to be able to help.
Randy has long been considered the best hickory player in the country. He definitely has the most titles under his belt. One of the things I have always said was, if you are going to have someone restore your clubs (or work on your game) would you want it to be a 20+ handicap or a scratch player?
I suspect they will be be very playable.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2006, 12:41:45 PM »
Randy assures me they will be.  I didn't go close to top of the line - couldn't afford that - but I do feel confident I will be able to get around a course and give this whole thing a fair test.

Thanks again for all of your help, Ralph.  Who knows?  If I get into this enough, maybe I'll see you at a tournament some day, filling my fole as field fodder.

 ;D

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2006, 01:24:10 PM »
If I get into this enough, maybe I'll see you at a tournament some day, filling my fole as field fodder.

 ;D

Does anyone want some action on how long this Huckaby experiment will last?  :)

My prediction is they will find the closet after 1 GCA outing.

Huck,

I recently did a 9 hole test on a warm day here of persimmon driven versus a 3 year old Taylor Made 300 Series (the 1 year old is in Florida due to logistics). On the 9th hole, I hit a classic Sweeney bad fade with the Taylor Made and I hit the George Izett wood right on the screws. The Taylor Made was still 10 yards past the persimmon, and on the other holes it was closer to 50 yards.

Now if I actually beat you and/or Mucci someday, I may continue the experiment, but until then I remain a Traditionalist who would sell his soul for 10 yards! ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 01:24:40 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2006, 01:53:21 PM »
Mike:

I wouldn't bet against the under.   ;D

Still I am intrigued by this.  Oh, I don't see myself ever going pure hickory-only like Ralph or god forbid Ran... I just do see this as a very fun experiment and diversion for fun golf outside of competition.

Of course when the chips are down, I am gonna want modern weapons, since I simply can't whine for strokes the way a certain now-Carolinian is so adept at.

I would certainly be interested in like for like matches though... the next time I play that Carolinian, it will be straight up, as he will likely have better implements than me.

TH

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2006, 02:54:54 PM »
Tom, I hope to get together so you can see what the Mercedes of hickory clubs is like after you get some experiance with these. They will get you started, but they do resemble what your average 30 handicap was using. You might have to be fairly creative to get off some good shots.
The Brassie sounds like a really good club. The Irons might need some strips of lead tape to get them where they should be. All should have been lengthened for your height, although most need to be lengthened anyway. There weren't too many 6+ foot players in those days. Lie angles on the Irons should be pushed up, otherwise you will pushing shots right.
All of this is part of a true restoration process.

Other than that, I think you will still have a good time.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tom Huckaby

Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2006, 02:59:24 PM »
Ralph:

Well first of all, I am short and fat.  I ought to have that going for me fit-wise.   ;D

As for the rest, believe me, I have VERY low expectations as to how I will be able to wield these.  If I can make decent contact at all, I'll be happy.  And creativity required for good shots is what got me started on this road in the first place!

It is gonna be fun.

 ;D


RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2006, 03:19:56 PM »
Well, I did have some work done on my head recently and my memory isn't what it should be. I could have sworn you said somewhere you were 6+ ft. tall.
So, they should be a perfect fit. :) :)

I still want you to hit great versions of these clubs.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader