Hickories/Reined-back golf - new learning (for me anyway)

[Tom Huckaby]

We've often discussed in here the use of hickories and the worth thereof.  I've never really gotten the attraction outside of it just being a fun novelty; a fun way to play the game, to be given up when one wanted to really see what he could do.  I still believe there is an element of that... BUT...

Recently it's occurred to me that I - and many people I know - just go ahead and hit driver on tight holes way too often.  The huge heads and huge amounts of forgiveness make them the straightest clubs in our bag. That's been mentioned in here before also.  I've always thought of it as a good thing... until recently that is....

This occurred at least twice at PG Muni yesterday.  #7 is a very tight par 4, with ob right and trees left, that in the persimmon days would at least for me necessitate a 3-4wood or 2iron an an effort to avoid disaster. Yesterday?  No thought at all, just hit normal solid driver - it will stay safe.  And it did, hit somewhat on the heel - a shot that would have been dead with persimmon.

It also occurred on #14 - a somewhat tight par 4 that necks down where a well-hit driver will go.  Old days, 2iron or fwy wood to stay short of the neck - these days - a pretty much no-thought driver - it being as straight as those clubs anyway.

So maybe it's my density, but man this has occurred a LOT in the last two years particularly for me, and it's only hit home very recently - a large part of the fun of the game is gone, as nice as it is to hit these successful shots!  Give me the old sticks and the strategy returns... the thinking... the satisfied feeling of making the right play....

On the other hand, it sure us fun to bomb the ball, and to make good scores.  But I miss this thinking part of the game....

For those of you who have gone to hickories for all or part of your golf, is this part of the reason - to return club selection on tee shots more?

Now don't get me wrong - the game does remain plenty difficult for me with modern clubs.  I can't see that I'd ever go 100% hickory.  But man it is tempting... and I do want to give it a try more... I've done a little of it... I am now more intrigued than ever.

Of course the problem becomes competition.  As much as I'd love to play hickory matches, well... I can't see my golf buds going that route, nor can I see myself travelling to attend the great hickory outings I've heard about.  So this does remain problematic.

I'd appreciate any and all thoughts.

 

[Craig Sweet]

What I have noticed is misdirected shots 15 years ago resulted in some serious tree issues for me. Now, those trees have matured a lot and have been "limbed up" high enough that I can get out easily. Thus, I don't worry about them and I swing away more freely (rather than trying to direct my shot with the old persimmon club) resulting in nice drives.

[Tom Huckaby]

Craig - interesting thought... as trees grow up they become less of a deal... I sure hadn't thought of that either.

[Matt MacIver]

The sweet spot is so large on these new clubs it feels to me like cheating...said another way, would I score as well using my 20 year old Spalding metal driver?  If I have enough guts I'm going to try to find out this year by playing it exclusively.....

Slightly OT but re: "new learning"...my competitive juices don't flow enough in stroke play with $5 nassaus....sure I get mad at bad swings, lost balls and losing $, but for me if I played more (or any) match play events I would certainly concentrate, and learn, more.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt- this part of it came up recently either.  I do believe that given enough practice, I could play reasonably close to as well as I do know with a 20 year old MacGregor Eye-o-Matic or the like.  The key is today's clubs don't necessitate practice.

Now hickories... I don't see ever coming all that close.

But it does remain intriguing.

In any case, that is interesting... serious match play is required to get you really interested... well you know the answer there!  There have to be events you can play, or guys you can talk into playing you.

TH

[Michael Moore]

Huck -

I think you are overcomplicating the matter.

I play persimmon because it

A. Looks great

B. Sounds great

C. Gets people to notice me

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael:

Those are all fine reasons, even the last.

 

I'm just so damn wedded to the modern stuff and the results they allow... it does get complicated for me.

Here's another aspect of this, also brought up before but perhaps not so directly:

Does the use of hickories and/or other older technology absolve one of any shot responsibility?  That is, you cease EXPECTING to hit good shots or make good scores or whatever... and can use it as an excuse to others as well... That would have to be liberating.  But at a certain point even that would have to cease, as you really would have just changed the expectations, and a certain level therefore would have to return in the long run....

TH

[Craig Sweet]

Tom,

Out here in the west I find a couple of things happening. Like I mentioned, as trees mature they are limbed up, the under brush (if any) is cleaned up and the area beneath the branches becomes almost park like. Getting out of jail is way easier than it once was.

The second thing I have noticed is the fairways on many courses in the west are very wide thus allowing for some serious free swinging with the driver.  I also know of several courses that are cutting their rough pretty low to speed up play and "dumb down" the course for our aging population.

I don't think it would matter whether you hit a hickory shafted driver, a persimmon headed driver or a 460cc canon, the "trouble" you can get into just isn't there so much anymore.

[Tom Huckaby]

Craig:

You have just described perfectly what has occurred at one of my former favorite courses:  Fort Ord-Bayonet.  They did this to make it more palatable for the casual player, in an attempt to become a resort-type course.  Everyone loves the changes except me.

I haven't thought of this as a general trend though.. but I think you're right.

So there is in general less reason than ever NOT to bomb away with driver.

My issue here though is about those holes on which the tightness and choice does remain - and thankfully these holes still do exist.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

Guess I probably need to weigh in here. Maybe we can get Ran to say something.

The reason for playing Hickories for me has changed over time, and it has been about 11 years now.
At first I was just curious about what they did. When I restored a couple of clubs and hit them, there performance was considerably beyond my expectations. At the time I was working on modern clubs and I applied to techniques I learned to restoring hickory clubs. I also started documenting them and realized the common knowledge about them as compared to moderns was grossly incorrect. When I took the Mashie out and hit it, it matched in distance to thee 7 Iron in my modern set. When I went back and measured it, the length and loft were vertually identical to the 7. That started a binge of club documentation to identify a true relationship with moderns.
When I got my first set together (6 clubs) and played my first 9 holes, I shot 1 over my handicap from the regular tees.
I also started to realize how much more fun I was having then when I played my moderns and how much I was learning about course management. Learning about architecture started to raise it's ugly head. With them moderns, I didn't really think about strategy, just hit the fairway, hit the green, try not to 3 putt. The hickories changed that big time. Ball placement became of paramount importance.
When I went to Scotland for the first time a couple of years later, my golf life was absolutely turned upside down. Playing courses genuinely appropriate to the clubs pushed me way over the edge. There I learned about reverse engineering holes to be able to play them.
About then is when I started Hickorygolf.com to help others find their way.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph:

I was hoping you'd see this.  In fact, if you didn't, I was going to seek your counsel by email.

That all makes great sense to me.

I assume my question in this thread what you are getting at with:

"Learning about architecture started to raise it's ugly head. With them moderns, I didn't really think about strategy, just hit the fairway, hit the green, try not to 3 putt. The hickories changed that big time. Ball placement became of paramount importance."

Right?

I do want to have that placement challenge again.

I guess what I can't get over  - to make this jump more permanent, to invest the time and money to get good playable hickories - is that I have a hard time believing I'd ever get to playing within 1 shot of my handicap now, as you said you did your first time out.  And as much as I'd love to say I am above such things, well... like I say the game is tough enough for me with modern clubs.  My use of hickories would come with an expectation I'd never be all that good with them, which of course can be a good thing too as I said before.

In any case, the more that I think about this, the more intrigued I become.  So here's the $64K question:

I am lazy.  I don't want to wade through websites.  I am impatient - I don't want to wait for Ebay auctions.   I don't have the wherewhithal to travel to collectors' society meetings.

Is there a place I can just buy a decent set of 6-7 clubs to get me going?  I want one-stop shopping, and I don't want to spend an arm and a leg.

I know I am being totally unreasonable, and I also know I am missing out on part of the fun of this - the research, acquisition, collecting.

I just want to be able to give this a decent try.

Is there a place I can make this happen?

TH

[Matt MacIver]

I second all of Tom's comments and would like to "reverse engineer" possibly committing to hickories -- i.e. buy a complete set and over time appreciate the history, collecting, etc.  

[Craig Sweet]

The absence of strategy with modern clubs...hmmmm....interesting.

Certainly new technology can eliminate much of the strategy built into a golf course,but on the other hand it can open up a whole new strategy....

But I think it gets back to the golf course. Some courses have a strategy (or several) to them. and some are completely absent of strategy.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Craig:

At least for me, the instances of new strategies being opened up by modern technology are outweighed by the instances in which strategies are eliminated.  That is, I can't hit the ball far enough to bomb it over things I couldn't before.  I know that does happen for some people.

And you are absolutely correct about some golf courses allowing different strategies, some allowing one only.  I prefer the former.

I just really have become struck in recent times by the lack of need to hit anything but driver off the tee.  Again, it could be just me.  But while it is fun to have that kind of control and success, well... at least a part of the game has gone missing for me.  Thus my inquiries here.

TH

[Dave Bourgeois]

I guess a lot of this absence of strategy applies to low handicap golfers.

From my own experience my modern Pings help me mostly with miss hits.  Well a miss hit might put me short and into a bunker, and with my old Hogans my misshit would have been 5 to 10 yards short of the bunker.  Still no good, but both recoveries will be interesting to me.

With old equipment I only hit 3 woods off the tee and that left me short of trouble.  I now hit an 11 degree driver that can get me into trouble, so I have to make more decisions when it comes to a particular hole.  

Scoring for most golfers isn't lower with new equipment, but I suspect that is because I don't see a heck of a lot of crazy technology in wedges!  Now we all know how important wedge play is don't we.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave:

Maybe it is just a low handicapper thing - I don't know.  I'm not all that good, as many here can attest to.  When the putts fall I play like a 3, when they don't or any of many other things go wrong I can play like a 12.  Current index is 4.8, likely to go up a little in the 2/1 revision.

In any case, I'm also not talking about iron shots - yes, the issue there will be mis-hits and those will be worse with hickories and older clubs - but still, I do believe one can at least come close with old irons - you just play differently, adjust.

I don't see a hickory wood being in the same ballpark as a modern 460cc Titanium monster, both in terms of distance but more importantly for this issue, in terms of forgiveness.

Thus on the holes I listed from Pacific Grove Muni, if I have hickory, I have a serious choice to make.  If I have the monster modern driver, there is one choice and one choice only.

That's the strategic part I am getting at.  It may well be very narrow and it may well be just me.  But man it hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday... and I have been thinking about it for a few years.

Late add - from your edit, I see you do understand more what I am getting at re tee shots.

And sure there are going to be holes where the new driver can get you into trouble you stayed short of before.  But what you do on holes where the trouble isn't based on distance - that is, it's narrow all the way?  That's more what I am getting at... holes that in the old days - for me - would have been a risky driver or safe 2iron/3-4wood, which today given the forgiveness of the driver just leave no real reason not to hit it.

I see that far more than I see holes that the new distance means I get into more trouble....

TH

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I began my golf with hickories back in the late 50’s (1950’s) handed down to me from my grandfather. A random mixture of niblicks, mashies, spoons, putting cleeks, a Nr.10 etc from the beginning of the 20th Century. After a couple of years playing I  was so used to playing with hickories I preferred them to my colleagues steel shafts and blades. As I grew older I kept my mashie niblick in the bag for all my chip and run shots and I putted with my putting cleek for many years. The modern golf clubs make life much easier on the golf course – but I’m  also thinking of returning to hickory golf course for the shorter courses and taking a nostalgic trip down memory lane.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Tom H,

Do you think getting a hold of some pre Pro V1 balls that spin like mad off the driver would give you what you are looking for?

Playing hickory must be an entirely different experience, but by simply having balls that are less hot and more prone to side spin might make a big difference even with a 460cc driver.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - good call - old balata balls would likely do the trick here at least to some extent.

That might be a fair compromise.  I do have a garbage can full of old golf balls.

Still this whole hickory thing intrigues me.  If I can easily get a simple set at a simple price, I do want to give it a try.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I can see playing Hickories as well especially since owning them can get you into the Hickory Open @ the Kingsley Club!

[Andy Hughes]

I guess what I can't get over  - to make this jump more permanent, to invest the time and money to get good playable hickories - is that I have a hard time believing I'd ever get to playing within 1 shot of my handicap now, as you said you did your first time out.  And as much as I'd love to say I am above such things, well... like I say the game is tough enough for me with modern clubs.  My use of hickories would come with an expectation I'd never be all that good with them, which of course can be a good thing too as I said before.

Tom, I guess I still don't understand this train of thought. Pat Mucci chimes in periodically with similar thoughts and I can't ever quite get my brain around it.  You both strongly imply the game is so much more fun without the latest and greatest tools, and then you both end up playing the latest and greatest tools! The best I have been able to get from Pat is that he has matches with his playing partners. OK, I guess.

Why not just leave the driver home as well as all the even or odd irons and have a go? Or take an old driver. Thought would again enter into it, shotmaking would return.  I guess I just have a hard time understanding everyone complaining about the fun being reduced and the challenge being gone and so on why still using a full complement of the newest clubs.  
Or maybe I am just a dumbass and am missing the point somehow.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - another great call - I damn near pulled the trigger on that last year.  God that sounds like fun....

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy - if anyone is a dumbass here, it's Mucci... er, I mean me.

 

For me anyway, it is complicated.

I am not saying the game would necessarily be more fun with antiquated tools - as I say, I do love to hit the ball well, I do enjoy success.  I continue to use the best available technology I can slip past budget control (my wife) because of this, and because I haven't yet found a way to get a decent hickory set.  Remember too I've also stated that I sincerely doubt I ever go 100% over to hickories; like Pat, I play too much competitive golf to allow that to occur.

I am just struck with the fact the club choices off the tee for me are so much lesser these days.  Man it is a VERY rare hole that I don't hit driver due to narrowness.  And that to me just doesn't seem right any more.

Thus the hickory contemplation.  Again, if the chips are down and competition is involved, then hell yes it's modern clubs.  And that will never cease to be a part of golf for me.

But outside of that?

I want to be forced to think more again.  Yes, there are other ways to make that happen - older golf balls as Dave says, leaving clubs at home (though I've done that - it gets old pretty quickly for me), maybe just adding an old driver.  I don't know.

Hickory golf is just getting so much more popular - thanks in a large way to Ralph Livingston - that it continues to intrigue me.

Just do understand I am far far far far from so good at this game that the challenge has ceased with modern clubs - that's not what this is about.

TH

[Craig Sweet]

I really enjoy playing a course where I have the opportunity to bomb away, AND on some holes hit a 3 wood or a long iron.

I agree Tom, these days it is easy to hit a driver on every hole. I don't know if its the equipment and the sheer enjoyment of feeling the ball explode off the club and soar so damn far, or whether its an ego thing, a golf course maintinance thing being employed to speed up play (fewer hazards/easier hazards), or a strategy thing that comes with the longer courses being constructed today.

[Tom Huckaby]

Craig - good call - the best courses allow a bit of each.

I just can seriously count on one hand the number of times I've kept driver in the bag due to hole narrowness in the last 2 years.  I used to do it all the time.  It just doesn't seem right.

TH