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Mike_Cirba

Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« on: August 12, 2002, 07:59:20 AM »
Tom Fazio's designs are often faulted for not having classic strategy, and I'm beginning to think that's an oversimplifcation, or perhaps even a slight misunderstanding.

"No strategy" would imply that the results of every shot yield similar results.  That is not true, at least in most of the Fazio courses I've seen, including a new one this past weekend.

A basic rule of classic strategy dictates that the successful riskier line for one shot leads to an advantageous position for the next.  Challenging a bunker complex, or other hazard from the tee and succeeding, might provide one with a better angle, or the avoidance of having to deal with another hazard on the subsequent shot.  

I also think classic strategy goes further than that based on how golf course features utilize the existing landforms.  A good example might be a hole like the 6th at Huntingdon Valley (see course profile),  where the right to left fall of the land dictates the creation of a diagonal green that flows from front right to back left.  Flynn thoughtfully provided a carry bunker on the hill on the right, which if carried, allows the ball to funnel to the green utilizing the existing contours.  

Now, back to Tom Fazio, and his differing approach.  On virtually every hole, the apparently dangerous line from the tee was NOT the preferred line, even if done successfully.  Most holes bent slightly one way or another, and most of the holes did feature bunkers on the inside of the dogleg.  However, one found time and again that there was absolutely no reason to challenge them, short of making the hole play slightly shorter.

Instead, ironically enough, those more daring routes almost always left one with a funky angle of approach, or a tougher carry, or an awkward stance.  

Time and again, the best play from the tee was AWAY from the hazards, to the outside of the doglegs.  

What's more the use of landforms in directing approaches was almost exactly the opposite of what I described in the Flynn  model at Huntingdon Valley.  Taking that example, it's as if Fazio would have designed that greensite running diagonally from front left to back right, almost "against the grain", probably with bunkers on the left side, and necessitating a full carry.   He would have also flattened the right side, perhaps creating a visually dramatic look of "benching" the right side into the steep bank on the right, with the flattening extending perhaps another 20 paces right of the green.

A good example of this is the 4th hole I played of his the other day.  It is an uphill par four of 410 yards, with land sloping from left to right, and the hole turning that way.  On the right inside corner of the dogleg are two nasty bunkers, and further right is death.  

However, if one challenges those bunkers succesfully, they are left with an oblique angle of approach which is fully carry over a very deep bunker.  

If one bails away from the trouble on their drive, they are left with an open approach, albeit slightly longer.

So it went all day.  I was left wondering if this isn't perhaps a purposeful style of Fazio's, and perhaps somewhat original in concept, whether you agree with it or not.  

It isn't "no strategy", it's "anti-strategy", and it's certainly counter-intuitive.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2002, 08:08:55 AM »
Mike-

I'm beginning to think that no one in the Fazio organization actually took the time to walk the land first and then design the holes and the strategy to fit the land. The closest we could find to that was the location of the 9th green in front of a beautiful (and photogenic) rock outcropping. As we discussed during our round on Saturday, it sure looked like cookbook design right from the computer.  Either that or his design associate has dyslexia!  

What do you expect for a mere $25 million?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2002, 08:22:30 AM »
Do you think that Fazio and his group contemplate that the more heroic carry is going to be attempted by the better player and thus they want to provide another challenge into the green with the carry over the hazard?  While providing the lesser player the challenge of tackling a hole that distance wise may be a bit more daunting by not forcing carries but they still are in play unless a wayward shot is hit?  Did that make sense?

Basically the golfer is provided a challenge from the tee and on the shot thus making the hole heroic by nature on both shots and providing the player with a sense of excitement when clearing the obstacles.  When the lesser player probably is just as excited about getting their par the other way and can deal with a bogey or worse if they hit a wayward shot and aren't forced to carry the hazard.  I could see where the appeal for this type of hole once or twice a round would be there but if all of the holes on a course are this way, then I would wonder if this is Fazio's way of challenging the longer and probably more skilled player.  

I actually can see the strategy in that.  The only part of the whole thing is that we on this board often see that the player who attempts and pulls off the more daring shot should have the easier shot into the green.  Maybe Fazio is harkening back to the difficult par, easy bogey mentality.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TomSteenstrup

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2002, 08:30:19 AM »
That's an interesting observation, Chris. I remember a thread here earlier that dealt with the notion that a successful tee shot shouldn't always be rewarded with both shorter distance to and better angle at the flag. It makes some of sense to me, when you consider the extreme differences in ability between low and high handicappers.

I haven't played a Fazio course though, so I can't comment on his specific ideas and layouts.

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2002, 08:34:12 AM »
Mike:

Agree with your take.

I had a friend of mine mention to me that you could use one word to describe the essence of many Americans. The word is MORE. The same applies to TF and many of his designs. To TF's credit (?) he sees what people wants and gives them MORE of it.

It doesn't matter if MORE is better (i.e. real strategic choices) because many people aren't interested in it. I just wonder does TF really understand strategic implications or does he just follow the cranking out of pro forma layouts that SELL well? I have to say he has been able to design quality layouts and I listed a number of them on the other thread regarding his best designs. But, you have to wonder, has his design business become soooo big that the long lasting quality layouts are more the exception than the rule?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2002, 08:46:48 AM »
Chris;

I can somewhat understand your take, and a good "fooled you!" hole now and again is certainly valid.

However, how many times do you think a good player is going to challenge those hazards once he finds it sets him at a distinct disadvantage even if he succeeds?

Also, with 5-6 or more sets of tees, which the course has, why would only good players challenge the more daring routes from the tee?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2002, 09:50:09 AM »
Dave;

Unless the golfer is the testosterone-inflamed "Curious JJ", I have to wonder why they would purposefully make the course harder for themselves by "driving in the other lanes against traffic", so to speak?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2002, 09:51:45 AM »
Dave -

that's one of the more silly posts I've seen.  Isn't the object of the game to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes.  I doubt that Mike Cirba will try to challenge the left side bunker on the 9th hole at the course we played on Saturday if he played there again. He was left with an extremely difficult sand wedge while my slight pull hook that should have found the rough (lefty as is Mike) banked off the concave containment and well into the right side of the fairway.  For this, I was rewarded with a pitching wedge from the fairway with a PERFECT angle.  The role of the architect is in my mind to avoid these stupid situations on the courses they build. Mike didn't get style points for his drive but it did raise the price of my backup driver that he was using  :) . (Just kidding Mike)

Only Tommy Naccarato, bless his soul, would aim for trouble on purpose.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

WilliamWang

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2002, 10:02:10 AM »
Y Y Y or perhaps you're talking about an extra X? ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2002, 10:05:27 AM »
Correct WIlliam- Its that Y chromosme that holds those macho genes.

Dave-  I would agree with you if you said that you went for every "sucker" pin location or tried every risk/reward shot on the course, however, when the BASIC DESIGN of the course employs no reward for the risk then that just BAD DESIGN.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2002, 10:39:40 AM »
I just read an article at lunch entitled, "The "Jackass" Nation", which tried to look into the socio-implications and rationale for our culture's current enamoration with EXTREME sports, shows, fashion, etc.  Everything from people flinging themselves off cliffs on tricyles (the MTV show Jackass), to facial and body piercings and tattoos, to the X-Games, to shows like "Fear Factor", movies like "Fight Club", and the glorification of pain, risk, and humiliation.

I thought about Dave's post and for a few minutes wondered if perhaps he was correct that Tom Fazio has consciously or inadvertedly stumbled upon a design philosophy truly in step with the times.  Certainly, the costs involved are extreme.  To a great degree, the LOOK is as well.  

Is the Fazio playability the same philsophy as creating the "bunny slope" and the "black diamond run" all within the same hole for thrill seekers??  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2002, 11:42:55 AM »
Geoffrey,

I am with David.  Gib made a nice par on 16 at Cypress by playing 7-iron left.  You would have to rip the 3-wood out of my cold dead hands before I would lay up and play smart.

I have yet to meet a driveable par four that I put a 5-iron in my hand on.  I absolutely know I would fair far better and "Get the ball in the hole in less strokes" hitting fairways and trusting my wedge but cannot do it.  Same goes for forced carries into 2-shot par fives.  Smart and golf are not synonymous.  I want the stupid shot to challenge my senses.  I love the visceral appeal of taking risks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

GeoffreyC

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2002, 11:48:11 AM »
David

You hit the 3-wood on #16 at Cypress Point to increase your odds of making birdie.  You hit driver on short par 4's to make eagle.  Am I correct in that statement?  You do not challenge trouble knowing that success leaves you a LESS desirable next shot or smaller odds at making a good score.  That's what this latest Fazio course does OVER and OVER.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2002, 11:56:44 AM »

Quote
David

You do not challenge trouble knowing that success leaves you a LESS desirable next shot or smaller odds at making a good score.  

Geoffrey,

Now I see what you are getting at.  I agree with the first half or the statement.  I think David (Although he can speak for himself) and I disagree with the second.  I would not try a shot that leaves a LESS desirable next shot.  I definitely try shots that give me smaller odds at making a good score.  I do this to get the feeling when I occasionally execute and get a great score.

If I laid up on every driveable par 4 and two-shot forced carry par five I would undoubtly have a better scoring average than going for them but I would also be devoid of Eagles.  That is the trade my ego forces me to make.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2002, 11:56:47 AM »
That's the whole point, David...

I'm not the best "field general" either, and like to try the high-risk shot many times, but what if you try the high-risk shot, SUCCEED, only to find that it puts you in a worse position for your next?  

I suspect that just like the laboratory rat who gets a shock every time you go down Avenue A of the maze, one would soon find your way to Avenue B rather quickly.

Making one wonder...what's the point of Avenue A in the first place, other than to provide visual drama?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2002, 12:10:52 PM »
In an effort to answer the question of this thread, a number of possibilties have been forwarded;

Geoffrey humorously, but also half-seriously surmised one of the following;

A) The holes were lifted from computer to site, without any consideration of the land they would sit on. (still doesn't explain the anti-strategy of the "features)

B) Fazio's shapers suffer from dyslexia.

Chris and Dave both surmised that perhaps Fazio is going after the "X-golfer", one who just wanted a constant diet of ever-increasingly difficult carry shots over trouble to somehow feed their adrenaline habit.  We'll call that...  

C) Adrenaline Junkies

I will offer two other thoughts, because I believe that Tom Fazio is clearly an intelligent, reasoned architect who leaves little to chance.  I think the real answer is a combination of the two of them;

D) Fazio's second concern is for "playability" and acceptance, so it's not important for him to punish the player who goes "around" the trouble in any way.  By default, that "high-handicap" route also becomes the "line of strategy" for the best players, even if it's not the "line of charm".

E) Fazio's first concern is how the holes "look" and photograph.  If a hazard looks better on the right than the left, that's where it goes.  If a dramatic ridge needs some equally eye-popping bunkers emphasizing it, that's where they go, regardless of how they influence strategy.....even if they make it "anti-strategy".    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2002, 12:22:48 PM »
I know that at one of the courses Fazio built, this failure to reward risk was not his fault.  Flint Hills National has 17 very good holes and a train wreck for #18.  It appears to be a 2-shot forced carry par five.  The tee and green both sit on one side of the river with the fairway on the other.  The hole is a severe dogleg left.  Option one would be 4-iron across the river, 5-iron to the landing area short of the green, PW across the river to the green.  The hole has a big sand trap on the interior edge of the dogleg.  From the tee, it appears that the heroic carry over the sand trap (250 in the air) will pitch the ball forward on a down slope and leave a 200-yard forced carry into the green.

I executed this shot off the tee and found myself 200 yards from the green and totally in jail behind two fully mature willows.  My reward for the risk was now to play SW to the landing area and SW to the green.  I commented on how dumb the hole was and why anyone would ever take the risk off the tee.  One of the Pro's told me that the owner was a tree hugger.  He had apparently promised Fazio that he could cut down the one willow after the hole was built and Fazio showed him how it goofed up the strategy.  After Fazio built the hole, the owner not only did not let Fazio cut down the tree, he planted a second one right next to it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2002, 10:07:20 PM »
I'm pissed off. You guys didn't tell me you were coming to SoCal to play Pelican Hill.

I must insist all of you get your text books (Geoff Shackelford and Mike Miller's Art of Golf Design) out for today's study on Max Behr's Line of Charm. (In fact, you should all be shackled and beaten for not bringing it up in this thread.)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2002, 03:58:33 AM »
Fazio knows that maybe 25% of the people who play his courses are really good enough to care about all these strategic nuances.

Of those 25%, maybe 5% actually strategize the way we talk about. And I think that's being generous.

Why build for that 5% by sacrificing some of the visual appeal or playability that the other 95% live for?

Fazio understands what his clients want, and most of them, as far as I know, are quite happy. Here's a question:

Name a Fazio original course which has been redesigned?

Meanwhile, many other architects have had their designs changed a lot. There must be some Fazios in this category, but overall, Fazio's clients seem to be pretty happy with the results he delivers. Most people like beautiful, playable golf courses!

As I've mentioned before, I play at home at a Fazio course which I love. And I've played some Fazios that I didn't like, for the reasons often mentioned here on GCA. I'm just saying, Fazio does his job in a way that generates business, brings in revenue, and leaves his clients highly satisfied. We should all hope for such success in our own ways of business!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2002, 04:02:53 AM »
Tommy;

Very funny about Pelican Hill. :)

As far as Max Behr, perhaps you missed my following comment;

"Fazio's second concern is for "playability" and acceptance, so it's not important for him to punish the player who goes "around" the trouble in any way.  By default, that "high-handicap" route also becomes the "line of strategy" for the best players, even if it's not the "line of charm"."

Matt;

Do you think it's possible or even desirable to include both playability and effective strategy on the same course?  Why, I bet aesthetics could even be included without spoiling the whole pot!  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Matt_Cohn

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2002, 04:13:05 AM »
Well sure you can! I just wonder if Fazio's players would appreciate it at all. If they wouldn't (I don't think they would), and everybody except 3/4 of GCA is happy as it is, then why change?

(I know why...but from a non-GCA point of view!)  :-)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2002, 05:46:15 AM »
Matt;

I don't understand why you say that the average golfer would not understand or appreciate strategy.

Sure, they love the "look" that Fazio provides, and certainly the playability, as well, but at some point, doesn't the course begin to play with only unidimensionality (love that word!)?

I was reading a press quote from Fazio this morning discussing the course in question, and paraphrasing, he went on about how it was such a great site that he didn't have to do a lot of his normal earthmoving "to create framing and visual attraction".  Not a word about how well suited the land was for the creation of great, interesting holes, but simply focused on the "presentation".  

This harkens back to my original point, which as you also mentioned, Tom Fazio makes a tremendous living at designing golf courses that are beautiful.  His purported "lack of strategy" is actually "anti-strategy", because the purpose of his hazards are almost inevitably to steer the player away, rather than entice them with some hope of taking advantage of a successfully risked shot.  

After some time, I would think that would get a bit mundane to play a course where everything was laid out with clear paths....sort of like taking Route 95 up and down the east coast over and over, instead of now and again taking Route 1 or the other back roads to stifle the boredom.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2002, 06:19:35 AM »
i think matt is correct in saying that the "average" golfer does not appreciate strategy.  he/she is in fact looking to shoot the lowest score possible on the course.  also the "average" golfer equates price with quality and equates views/framing/beautiful holes with architecture.  no where does the "average" golfer look for strategy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2002, 06:28:14 AM »
Matt/William;

If the average golfer does not understand or appreciate strategy, then why the interest and excitement over new courses like Wild Horse, Twisted Dune, Rustic Canyon, and their ilk?  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Tom Fazio and "Anti-Strategy"
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2002, 06:31:16 AM »
Sorry to jump in here, but Mike, wouldn't the excitement at each of those be due to a course that's getting great press that's reasonably priced?  I'd say the crowds at each of those are due way more to this than to the presence of "strategy"... magazine rankings and articles in the media sure as hell do matter to "the average golfer", ESPECIALLY when the course is reasonably priced... as is surely the case at Rustic and Wild Horse, anyway....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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