Bad caddie = bad experience?

[Steven Wade]

The first time I went to Ballyneal I had a “bad” caddie. He was constantly complaining about my perfectly normal weight stand bag. He wouldn’t let me keep a plastic bottle of water in the bag. He seemed to take delight when a shot didn’t go how or where I’d intended it to. I could go on with more examples. Normally I’d have just suffered through the round with him, but we were there for 3 days/5 rounds and they keep you together with the same caddie the whole time. After the second round I had to go to the caddie master and request a switch. This guy was absolutely impacting my experience and I enjoyed the following rounds a great deal more.

[Mike Wagner]

I apologize in advance, because I want to react here to parts of this conversation I find a bit grating. Full disclosure, I have never played with a caddie, but I've play in rounds where others had them. I know people who were caddies, and would even consider caddying as a hobby if I'd never injured my back. I obviously mean no disrespect to anyone involved here, but I do want to speak up.

I think they're an anachronism.

I couldn't agree more with Niall here. Caddies exist as a remnant of a time with a fairly fixed class system. We've held on to them, I think, in theory more than in practice. The pros use them, but more as teammates than as a service. The rich af clubs still use them. They are also a luxury service at resorts, which makes sense as well. The vast majority of courses, however, do not use them.

We need to remember that a class system is bad. Most Americans thankfully don't even really know what that means, but if you haven't read the Lord of the Rings while understanding that Frodo is upper class, and Sam is working class, then you haven't really understood Tolkien's writing, and you won't see that Sam is the actual main character.

This presents a real quandary when thinking about caddie services provided today. Ideally we should see caddies as course guides to people unfamiliar with a course (which is why they thrive at resorts), or as a teammate-esque partner at a club -- where the members should know the caddies personally, and have a professional-client relationship with them:

Bad caddie = poor club management.

Caddies are bad because they have either not been trained, they are inexperienced, or of poor work ethic.

Lots of caddies are classified as independent contractors (sometimes when they shouldn't be) so this take doesn't make much sense to me. If a club wants to have a serious commitment to caddies, they would make them employees with long-term contracts, provide training, and pay them regardless of whether they are on the bag. This means paying taxes that that entails. You can't just bring in independent contractors and expect them to perform like trained/committed employees, especially in a service industry.

I miss the days when caddies were high school and college kids, they were much more humble and appreciative.

This kind of attitude drives me crazy. You're hiring someone to provide you a service, and you want them to be appreciative? What does that even mean? You engaged in a business transaction, you're not doing them a favor. Beyond that, it entirely ignores the fact that we probably shouldn't be allowing high schoolers to engage in caddie services simply because the amount of sun damage could have serious health effects later in life, and we know they don't use the protections they should.

a caddy who proceeds to hand you a club on the first hole that when perfectly struck and hit exactly on the line told to, ends up either out of bounds or in a spot from which the next shot cannot be played from...

Perhaps the caddie over/under estimate's the player's driving distance, and perhaps the player over/underestimates their driving distance. I can see their being caddies that make the wrong calls, but I think maybe the first or second hole isn't the hole to judge them on.

At the end of the day, I think there are very few use cases where caddies should even exist, and in most of the areas where they do exist there are plenty of reason for them unprofessional on occasion. If the clubs/resorts aren't providing caddie services that provide long-term employment with a living wage, then caddie services will effectively be a glorified hobby. If that's the case, people shouldn't be expecting professionalism. This isn't the Victorian era, and I'm a bit weirded out by folks who I see pining for those archaic class dynamics.

Matt - please define living wage to the exact $ and please make it location specific. I have about 100 more for you.

[Steven Wade]

I’m very interested to see if he responds to this quoted comment 18 years later.

[jeffwarne]

Beyond that, it entirely ignores the fact that we probably shouldn't be allowing high schoolers to engage in caddie services simply because the amount of sun damage could have serious health effects later in life, and we know they don't use the protections they should.

I won't comment on the rest of your post because,despite having never employed a caddie in your life, you clearly stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night....


but



what?

[Cal Carlisle]

The first time I went to Ballyneal I had a “bad” caddie. He was constantly complaining about my perfectly normal weight stand bag. He wouldn’t let me keep a plastic bottle of water in the bag. He seemed to take delight when a shot didn’t go how or where I’d intended it to. I could go on with more examples. Normally I’d have just suffered through the round with him, but we were there for 3 days/5 rounds and they keep you together with the same caddie the whole time. After the second round I had to go to the caddie master and request a switch. This guy was absolutely impacting my experience and I enjoyed the following rounds a great deal more.

Damn Steve,


I've had a couple that didn't seem to take much pride in what they were doing, but your story takes the cake. I'm envisioning Triumph the Insult Comic Dog wearing a caddie bib.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt - please define living wage to the exact $ and please make it location specific. I have about 100 more for you.

I'm really not here to discuss economics. It's a complicated question, worthy of a complicated answer, but this is not the venue for that discussion, and most caddies are probably making well above that if they're getting two loops per day... what I'm concerned about is the independent contractors that show up before sunrise, and then leave at noon because they haven't gone out once.

I'm perfectly fine with the system we have now with regard to wages, my point is about expecting professionalism. When many caddies have no idea whether they'll get paid that day, I don't know if I'd expect too much professionalism, I'd expect the job to be treated like being an uber driver, where people pick it up between other gigs. This is fair enough, but you're going to get plenty of bad apples, because the system is not set up to create new people dedicating their lives to the job. There are fine folks who love the game, and caddie because of it, and they'll probably be the first ones out in the morning and the first ones out at noon, but that creates a zero-sum environment, where the marginal caddie, by definition, might go home empty handed. We should care about the marginal caddie if we want professionalism in caddie services.

I won't comment on the rest of your post because,despite having never employed a caddie in your life, you clearly stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.... but what?

Feel free to make fun of me all you like, but if you're going to dismiss the concept of population risk to sun exposure at a young age, I suggest you have a chat with a dermatologist. I'm not saying every individual caddie will serious negative health effects, I'm saying that if we build a system of youth caddie programs, we know a percentage of them will experience negative health effects. 3% of fair skinned folks will have melanoma in their lifetime, when caught early the survival rate is high, but it is still non-negligible risk especially as the risks dramatically increase when the damage happens at a younger age.

“We used to say 50% of skin damage happened by your 20’s. Now it’s more like 25%,” says Susan Chon, M.D., professor in MD Anderson’s department of Dermatology. “That’s because people continue to be active and outdoors more throughout their life.”
--

If you can help your kids avoid sunburn, you also reduce their risk of skin cancer. One or more blistering sunburns as a child can double the lifetime risk of the most serious skin cancer, melanoma.

MD Anderson Cancer Center

[Tommy Williamsen]

I belonged to a club outside DC that required caddies on Weekend mornings. All other times they were optional. I probably took a caddie half the time. 90% of the time, I had the same caddie. He knew my game, and we enjoyed each other's company. He was not in a lower class than I am. I employed him to help me with decisions and carry my bag. I think he saved me a stroke a round. This weekend was the member/guest at my club (which we won). We do not have caddies. My partner and I would talk about club selection and read the greens together. A good caddie serves a similar purpose.


I played Lido and Cabot St. Lucia this past year. If you do not have a caddie for either of those courses, you are foolish. I don't know why people get so agitated about them.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't have an issue with Caddies, they are fundamentally no different than a million other jobs where you provide a service in exchange for compensation.

However....in the case of Kevin where it looks like he dropped $150+ US Dollars, I would be a bit miffed to get crappy service for that level of fee.  If its me and I'm looking to spend that much otherwise at a restaurant or hotel, I can at least look at online reviews and other customer feedback in advance to make an informed decision...which I'm not aware exists for caddies, nor would I have a choice.

P.S.  Bummer to hear of the poor Ballyneal experiences, mine was the complete opposite.  Had a college kid who hustled, was well informed, and johnnie on the spot with everything we needed, he was nothing short of terrific.

[Paul Jones]

I have a couple of caddie stories.... I am a national member of a club that only uses Evan Scholar caddies.  I love taking a caddie whenever I can, but limited to weekends and summer when they are not in school.  I enjoy talking to the kids and do not ask them to read putts.


My worst caddie experience was at Muirfield Village, I was playing with 3 founding members who were 20+ years older than me.  They were playing from 6,000 yards and I was playing from 6,700 yards.  On the first tee, it is just me and the caddie, since everyone else is playing from further up.  I asked the caddie what is the best line to take on the 1st hole, he laughs and says I do not know as this is my first loop.  He went on to explain that tomorrow is the start of the Member/Guest and they do not have enough caddies, so they were using caddies from surrounding courses.

[Mike Wagner]

Matt - please define living wage to the exact $ and please make it location specific. I have about 100 more for you.

I'm really not here to discuss economics. It's a complicated question, worthy of a complicated answer, but this is not the venue for that discussion, and most caddies are probably making well above that if they're getting two loops per day... what I'm concerned about is the independent contractors that show up before sunrise, and then leave at noon because they haven't gone out once.

If perfectly fine with the system we have now with regard to wages, my point is about expecting professionalism. When many caddies have no idea whether they'll get paid that day, I don't know if I'd expect too much professionalism, I'd expect the job to be treated like being an uber driver, where people pick it up between other gigs. Fair enough, but you're going to get plenty of bad apples, because the system is not set up to create new people dedicating their lives to the job. There are fine folks who love the game, and caddie because of it, and they'll probably be the first ones out in the morning and the first ones out at noon, but that creates a zero-sum environment, where the marginal caddie, by definition, might go home empty handed. We should care about the marginal caddie if we want professionalism in caddie services.

I won't comment on the rest of your post because,despite having never employed a caddie in your life, you clearly stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.... but what?

Feel free to make fun of me all you like, but if you're going to dismiss the concept of population risk to sun exposure at a young age, I suggest you have a chat with a dermatologist. I'm not saying every individual caddie will serious negative health effects, I'm saying that if we build a system of youth caddie programs, we know a percentage of them will experience negative health effects. 3% of fair skinned folks will have melanoma in their lifetime, when caught early the survival rate is high, but it is still non-negligible risk especially as the risks dramatically increase when the damage happens at a younger age.

“We used to say 50% of skin damage happened by your 20’s. Now it’s more like 25%,” says Susan Chon, M.D., professor in MD Anderson’s department of Dermatology. “That’s because people continue to be active and outdoors more throughout their life.”
--

If you can help your kids avoid sunburn, you also reduce their risk of skin cancer. One or more blistering sunburns as a child can double the lifetime risk of the most serious skin cancer, melanoma.

MD Anderson Cancer Center

You're the one who brought it up .. that's why I asked. It's a tag line that's complete BS.


Telling people they shouldn't expect something is just a race to the bottom. Life is full of great experiences and not so great experiences. If you don't have a great experience with someone providing a service you paid money for, it can be a learning experience. Giving honest feedback is how caddies (or anyone else for that matter) gets better. Flip side is true as well .. if I have a great caddie, I always let those in charge know how great my experience was.


As for being in the sun, I mean good grief ... if we lived our lives under that type of risk adverseness, we'd never leave the house.


And as for the topic, I've had a full range of caddie experiences. My most memorable ones are with a kid who's willing to and wants to learn. I don't need them doing a bunch of things for me, nor do I want them to. The Evans Scholarship is one of the greatest things in golf, and if I have an opportunity to take a caddie that's aiming for that, I will always do that. It's an opportunity for a relationship and to pass on what golf's given me for 50 years ... and it's a LOT.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Telling people they shouldn't expect something is just a race to the bottom. Life is full of great experiences and not so great experiences.

I don't want to seem hostile here. If I have, I'm sorry. By default, and probably to a fault, I think about things on a macro, system-wide level. That is why I have presented my views here the way I have. On a person-to-person level, I'm sure things look much different, and my thoughts might appear extremely counter-intuitive and even dumb.

[Tim Martin]

I caddied growing up and as such have plenty of respect for the calling and had mostly positive experiences over the years and remember plenty of days that were greatly enhanced by taking a caddie. If your home club has them then you certainly have some measure of control over who you get and what is expected. If you are a guest of a member at an away club the dynamic changes somewhat although you should still be in pretty good shape. If you are playing somewhere unaccompanied as a one off then it’s a different situation completely. You get who you get and it’s incumbent on you to make the best of it especially on a good/great course that you have been looking forward to playing. I like to play early in the morning and hope whoever I draw has enough self awareness to keep the conversation light and at the appropriate level. Steven’s story about playing multiple rounds over multiple days is a tough one and he made the right decision seeking a switch on what was most likely a bucket list course for him. I would think you could take the same approach at a resort where you have multiple rounds over a few days. I’m primarily a walker that pushes a trolley but when caddies or carts are the flavor of the day especially as a guest/unaccompanied I take the when in Rome approach.

[jeffwarne]

I have a couple of caddie stories.... I am a national member of a club that only uses Evan Scholar caddies.  I love taking a caddie whenever I can, but limited to weekends and summer when they are not in school.  I enjoy talking to the kids and do not ask them to read putts.


My worst caddie experience was at Muirfield Village, I was playing with 3 founding members who were 20+ years older than me.  They were playing from 6,000 yards and I was playing from 6,700 yards.  On the first tee, it is just me and the caddie, since everyone else is playing from further up.  I asked the caddie what is the best line to take on the 1st hole, he laughs and says I do not know as this is my first loop.  He went on to explain that tomorrow is the start of the Member/Guest and they do not have enough caddies, so they were using caddies from surrounding courses.

Other than not knowing the course, how was the caddie otherwise?
If the caddie not knowing the course(but was otherwise polite and somewhat diligent in the other duties) is the "worst" experience you've had, I'd say you're miles ahead of the game.
Caddie sharing is pretty common amongst clubs, especially in highly seasonal areas where an 80 player outing might be more rounds than a club may see the rest of the entire week in the off season.

[Kevin_Reilly]

To finish our golf trip I had a great caddy at Waterville.  Handled all the basics and was fun/enjoyable to be with.


I asked him if anyone had ever prepaid their tip to him at the beginning of the round (to set the tone for the round) and he laughed like it was a joke.

[Mike Wagner]

Telling people they shouldn't expect something is just a race to the bottom. Life is full of great experiences and not so great experiences.

I don't want to seem hostile here. If I have, I'm sorry. By default, and probably to a fault, I think about things on a macro, system-wide level. That is why I have presented my views here the way I have. On a person-to-person level, I'm sure things look much different, and my thoughts might appear extremely counter-intuitive and even dumb.

Didn't receive anything as hostile. They're just your words and that's how I feel about your description of what people should(n't) expect. Everybody's got their thoughts and that's all good.

[cary lichtenstein]

A great caddy makes your round better in every respect, a worthless caddy never bothered me, I just played my own game

[Tim_Weiman]

Your comment suggesting caddies shouldn’t exist brings to mind a high school kid that was a caddy at Sand Ridge in Cleveland that used to request my bag.

I doubt he would agree with you.  He loved the opportunity to caddy. He loved being outside. He loved the exercise. He loved the interaction with members. He was quite happy with the money.

I certainly have no reason to doubt that your are saying. I also certainly have no reason to doubt that the child has little-to-no knowledge of the externalities and long term health impacts of working such long hours in the sun at such a young age. I understand that I'm an outlier here, and yes, there is welcome benefit from limited child labor for everyone involved. That shouldn't mean that they should be receiving substandard wages. If they're willing to work for minimum wage, that's all well and good, but any unpaid or below-standard pay internship should effectively exist as a technical apprenticeship, where the intern is receiving a costly education in exchange for their labor. I would find the concept that young caddies, doing unassisted/unmonitored loops, as a form of technical education more than a bit incredulous.

Again, the heath risks of long-term sun exposure at such a young age is a separate issue. If I could easily convince people that youths shouldn't be working long hours in the sun as lifeguards or caddies, especially between peak hours (about 10am to 2pm), we wouldn't be having this conversation, but I understand that most folks are perfectly fine to dismiss the risks involved.

Also, I’m pretty sure he never viewed his job through a class system lens.

You have again mixed very different issues. I see and celebrate caddie-client relationships when they are professional. My point about class is that some folks here seem to be frustrated with some rando that has been assigned their bag, as if you just can't find good help these days. That's not how an egalitarian business relationships exists. If you want a professional caddie, then by all means, the club should employee them professionally. You should hire a caddie you know or have researched, just like you would with any other professional.

Matt,


Regarding your final paragraph, my experience with caddies here in the States or across the pond is that there are basically two options:


Experienced professional caddies
Young kids learning how to caddy


The ladder doesn’t bother me at all. It just means I am in a coaching/teaching mode and giving back to the game by helping the kid learn. This is especially important where clubs are trying to build their caddy programs.


Tim

[archie_struthers]

 


When I started at 11 we were little more than bag carriers but worked hard to stay with our player and would fore-caddie on all the
holes where the older looper told us to "get out front and watch". At $6-8 per round it was a bargain for the player.


Today prices are high for caddies and they really should be pretty good at their craft to get the fee they command. If they are bad it can detract from the experience big time. If they are quiet and polite and find your ball if it's a bit wayward that's great and if they really know their business it's the most fun golf you can play apart from some tournament activities. Walking without having to carry the bad is wonderful, and a pleasant caddie makes it a unique experience.

[Paul Jones]

I have a couple of caddie stories.... I am a national member of a club that only uses Evan Scholar caddies.  I love taking a caddie whenever I can, but limited to weekends and summer when they are not in school.  I enjoy talking to the kids and do not ask them to read putts.


My worst caddie experience was at Muirfield Village, I was playing with 3 founding members who were 20+ years older than me.  They were playing from 6,000 yards and I was playing from 6,700 yards.  On the first tee, it is just me and the caddie, since everyone else is playing from further up.  I asked the caddie what is the best line to take on the 1st hole, he laughs and says I do not know as this is my first loop.  He went on to explain that tomorrow is the start of the Member/Guest and they do not have enough caddies, so they were using caddies from surrounding courses.

Other than not knowing the course, how was the caddie otherwise?
If the caddie not knowing the course(but was otherwise polite and somewhat diligent in the other duties) is the "worst" experience you've had, I'd say you're miles ahead of the game.
Caddie sharing is pretty common amongst clubs, especially in highly seasonal areas where an 80 player outing might be more rounds than a club may see the rest of the entire week in the off season.

The caddie was a good guy, it was just comical as neither one of us knew where we were going and since I was playing further back, we had to hit first. The 3 members fussed about Jack and all the changes he keeps making to the course, etc.


The worst experience was more about my excitement to play a great course and it was disappointing b/w host upset with direction of the club, not knowing where to hit it. None of that was the caddie fault, he was just part of my experience.

[Tim Martin]

When I started at 11 we were little more than bag carriers but worked hard to stay with our player and would fore-caddie on all the
holes where the older looper told us to "get out front and watch". At $6-8 per round it was a bargain for the player.


Today prices are high for caddies and they really should be pretty good at their craft to get the fee they command. If they are bad it can detract from the experience big time. If they are quiet and polite and find your ball if it's a bit wayward that's great and if they really know their business it's the most fun golf you can play apart from some tournament activities. Walking without having to carry the bad is wonderful, and a pleasant caddie makes it a unique experience.

Archie-In 1973 I remember getting the bump from a “B” caddie to “A” which increased the per bag rate from $5 to $6. Wednesday afternoon brought out the gamblers and if your player(s) had a good day you might get $10 which was a windfall. No light bags made of aerospace materials with kickstands but instead a mammoth Burton leather model which ruled the day.

[Richard Fisher]

Every so often a GCA thread comes up that reminds me just how different our game is here in the UK. Over the years I have played a reasonable amount (about 60) of the UK 'Top 100' courses and never, ever, have I enjoyed the services of a professional caddie: the venues where they would routinely be offered were and are relatively few. Years ago I spoke at a Blackheath dinner and was offered a caddy from the junior section for golf the next morning, but that is it. My hunch remains that most employers of the caddies offered at e.g St Andrews or Prestwick of Royal County Down or Muirfield will not be from the UK.


Not sure why this might be, although expense is an obvious factor, but I guess habit comes into it too. Widespread caddying seems to have disappeared in the UK because of labour shortages during WW2 and never really re-emerged: I note that for the first post-war meeting of the Senior Golfers Society in 1945 members were 'encouraged to bring their own caddies', in itself a reflection of changing times.

[Steven Wade]

I guess since this has become more generally about caddies.


I went to Yeamans Hall this spring and was very surprised to learn that they have no caddie program at all. It was just a place that I assumed would have caddies, and I stocked my wallet accordingly. That said, it was kind of nice to just zoom around with our own bags. Caddies double bagging is definitely a slower way to play. I wasn’t disappointed that we were carrying ourselves.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Every so often a GCA thread comes up that reminds me just how different our game is here in the UK. Over the years I have played a reasonable amount (about 60) of the UK 'Top 100' courses and never, ever, have I enjoyed the services of a professional caddie: the venues where they would routinely be offered were and are relatively few. Years ago I spoke at a Blackheath dinner and was offered a caddy from the junior section for golf the next morning, but that is it. My hunch remains that most employers of the caddies offered at e.g St Andrews or Prestwick of Royal County Down or Muirfield will not be from the UK.

It isn't just the UK - I think the use of caddies is only prevalent at old school courses in the US - primarily in the Northeast or around large cities in a few other areas or at golf resorts like Pinehurst, Bandon, Pebble Beach, etc.  Here in Canada it is extremely rare to see caddies - the Cabot Links resort is one exception.


The other place I have seen caddies is in Asia where the caddies are often teenage girls - I play at Nirwana Bali in Indonesia about a decade ago and that was the norm at that course.

[Jeff Schley]

Having just received the WGA/Evans Scholars Impact Report for 2023 it is very appropriate to share the ripple effect of not only the caddie program, but the good it brings. Many, if not most people on this board contribute directly or indirectly to its success.

https://bluetoad.com/publication/?i=823780&p=&pn=

[Rob Marshall]

Having just received the WGA/Evans Scholars Impact Report for 2023 it is very appropriate to share the ripple effect of not only the caddie program, but the good it brings. Many, if not most people on this board contribute directly or indirectly to its success.

https://bluetoad.com/publication/?i=823780&p=&pn=

Thanks for posting that Jeff. Great to read some of the spotlights like Antoinette and Raul.