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Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2024, 07:47:47 PM »
Ha, this old thread was the only thing I could find in search.


Played Ballybunion Old today with two of my sons.  I had a caddy while my sons carried their own bags. 


This was the fifth round in the last five days, and in each of the previous rounds (Carne, Lahinch, Tralee...) my caddy was great.  Great craic, helpful with my boys (I tipped accordingly for the extra work and help) and just terrific for the round.


Today at BB Old we were the first group off so I assume the caddy assignments were based on seniority.  I got a caddy (very senior in terms of age) who was basically the only guy out of 5 million in the country who had no personality at all.  Zero.  Actually less than zero.


The first few holes he provided no help at all on shots, and never did even the basics. 


No personality, no help, smoking cigarettes the whole round. 


At the end of the round, I looked back on the experience at BB Old absolutely differently than if I had a caddy like we had at the previous courses.  When your MANDATORY caddy is terrible, it ruins the day.


Any others that had an experience like this?

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2024, 08:07:19 PM »
It has only happened twice and both times they were my club. After four or five holes I sent the caddies back to the club and carried my own bag. There have been times I wanted to , but I was a guest so I stuck it out. Yes a poor caddie makes the round less enjoyable.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2024, 08:19:33 PM »
Kevin,
You had a bad experience. That happens.
No reason to throw the guy under the bus.




Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2024, 08:28:52 PM »
I always try to let caddies know that their tip is not affected by how bad I play.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2024, 08:30:54 PM »
I paid the guy a big amount (minimum payment at BB is 95 Euro plus 50% tip) to do a basic job.


Throw the guy under the bus?  Ha!  Give me a break.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2024, 08:49:16 PM »
I paid the guy a big amount (minimum payment at BB is 95 Euro plus 50% tip) to do a basic job.


Throw the guy under the bus?  Ha!  Give me a break.
You paid the guy a big amount? Good for you.

I don't mind your criticism of a bad caddy but the particulars of the date/course and tee time you highlighted was unnecessary.
You'll give me a break? Maybe you could've given the guy a break instead of "publicizing" his perceived shortcomings.


Peter Sayegh

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2024, 09:06:41 PM »
I always try to let caddies know that their tip is not affected by how bad I play.
I rarely use a caddy but I give them the bulk of the tip before I tee off.
I tell them off the bat if I die mid-round, I don't want them scrounging my corpse for their compensation.
Sets the tone for the day.


Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2024, 11:43:02 PM »
Kevin,
You had a bad experience. That happens.
No reason to throw the guy under the bus.
I don't see much wrong with Kevin's post. He's venting and sharing an experience that's on topic.


I've had bad caddies at Oakmont and Kiawah Island. It detracted from the round quite a bit. At least at Oakmont I knew what I was doing enough to ignore the caddie after he misread a putt by about 17' on the first green.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Chris Hughes

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Re:Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2024, 12:58:58 AM »
Bad Caddie?

Gets ignored.

He/She becomes a MULE" at my request. 

Info passed on:

Carry bag
Pass my driver and putter to me, cover on
Give club(s) asked for
Clean clubs
Clean balls
Rake bunkers
Attend flagstick
Answer questions asked, if the answer is "I don't know", just say so.
Take absolutely no further initiative, not even yardages.

Works out great, happy end of story.


This. 
(ex. the "MULE" reference)


Single best caddie I ever had was in the M/G at Sleepy Hollow.  After about 6 holes of the practice round it was clear he had it figured out and from that point on I simply did as told.


Best caddie yard in my experience is at Garden City -- just a ton of great guys (and caddies).


Female caddie?  Alicia at Westhampton...literally the best green reader of any caddie I've ever had.


If I had to ding any club for a truly sub-par caddie group -- Westchester CC -- but as redanman says, assess and set expectations early, enjoy the day!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2024, 02:05:51 AM by Chris Hughes »

Jeff Schley

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2024, 01:30:43 AM »
I really enjoy a caddie and straight away I pardon all kids as they are just learning. I really appreciate their work ethic, for caddying takes effort waking up early etc. that hs kids don't love. I do like hearing from them their goals and usually they are trying to make money and hope to go to college, good on them.


I haven't had a "bad" experience, but the 2 best that stood out to me were pro caddies. One at LACC, who knew every inch of that course and shared it with me. The other was at North Berwick, where it's an easy walk, but he really gave me excellent advice being my first time there. Especially on the putting lines, which I would have been way off if left to my own devices.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Niall C

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2024, 06:06:46 AM »
Anyone who knows me and have read any of my previous posts regarding caddies knows I think they're an anachronism. The moment the caddy is telling you what to do you should just hand back the club, wish them a good game and leave them to it. Golf is about what is in your head and how you assess and way up different shots (ie. devise a strategy) as it is about executing a golf swing. Letting someone else tell you how to play a shot or a course or tell you their read of a green defeats the object of the exercise in my view. It is also largely an unnecessary expense which in these days of austerity and grow the game is an important consideration.


That said, I appreciate that in certain golfing cultures caddies are still very much a part of golfing life, up market clubs in the US for example. I've been lucky enough to visit the US a few times on golf trips which I very much enjoyed. On one occasion where I was required to take a caddy I've tried to take the Redanman approach and have them act as a bag carrier but unfortunately he didn't take the hint and kept giving unasked for advice. That did have an impact on my enjoyment of the round and I'd very happily done without him. However rules are rules and when in Rome and all that.


All that is a preamble to a couple of comments I'm going to make regarding Kevin's post. Firstly is the suggestion that it is now mandatory to take a caddy at Ballybunnion. I can't think of anywhere else in the UK and Ireland where it is mandatory to take a caddy. I dare say there will be other examples but very few and far between and even then probably the new breed of clubs looking to ape the high end US clubs. If ordinary members clubs, even ones with fantastic courses, are now going down that route, that's surely a retrograde step we can do without.


The second point is about Kevin calling out the caddy for doing a poor job. Well why shouldn't he ? The caddy is in the service industry and just like anyone else working in that area he's subject to getting reviews and even referrals if he's any good. And let's just think for a second how much he's getting paid. Assuming he's got any work ethic at all he'd caddy again in the afternoon meaning he'd get between 280 and 290 euros a day as a basic and possibly more on top. I know a lot of people over here who went to college/university, got their degrees, obtained a professional accreditation, work hard and who don't earn that much.


Niall       

Tom_Doak

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2024, 07:56:56 AM »
I love taking caddies where I can, and they are a real help to me because at this age I do get a little tired carrying my own bag -- my shoulder isn't in the best shape.  At my own courses, I don't need them to read greens, but they provide great info on how people are actually playing the holes, what features beat people up, etc.


Some of the caddies at our walking-only resort courses do try a bit too hard to be a tour guide and your best buddy, which of course is just tip-seeking.  I guess it makes sense for a lot of their players [who are generally unaccustomed to having a caddie at all, and are just trying to get around in one piece], but I've seen it become really annoying for good players who are trying to focus.


I've also had a few stories get back to me about caddies who quoted me about this or that hole.  Some of those stories have been true, and some are just completely fabricated!  So, don't blame me for whatever a caddie might say.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2024, 08:59:52 AM »
I had a bad caddie at TOC, but he was a trainee caddie.  Thick glasses should have been a tip off.  He was earnest.  He tried.  Eventually I realized that I needed to read my own putts, or try to.  He did know where the fairways were, which is not obvious (in most cases) at TOC for a first-timer. I got what I paid for and enjoyed the experience.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2024, 10:37:15 AM »
Golf is about what is in your head and how you assess and way up different shots (ie. devise a strategy) as it is about executing a golf swing. Letting someone else tell you how to play a shot or a course or tell you their read of a green defeats the object of the exercise in my view. It is also largely an unnecessary expense which in these days of austerity and grow the game is an important consideration.
Niall       
I agree.

Discover/decipher every hole or course on your own.

Isn't it more exciting to question YOUR assessment of a particular shot or putt?



DFarron

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2024, 12:27:37 PM »
I love the idea of taking a caddie but my results have been mixed. I tell the caddie on the first tee that all they need to do is to carry the clubs, keep them clean and when asked, show me the line of play. I don't mind friendly conversation but I don't really care about how many women they had the previous night or how many whiskies they can consume at a sitting.


For me the challenge in playing golf is making decisions and I want to make the decisions, not the caddie. If I screw up its on me. So far this year I had an excellent caddie at Trinity Forest, nice kid and helped me when I asked. At Streamsong I had an older guy in his '70's, he was pleasant enough but struggled to get through the 18. I felt bad for him and tipped him more than I should, but the service wasn't great. We had another caddie in the group, young kid who caddied at Ballyneal in the summer, was a complete idiot. Rude to his players and made lots of snide comments to me about how bad they were. Totally inappropriate.


Ran covered the caddie issue on a "State of the Game" podcast in 2015. The "professional" caddie can definitely subtract from the experience. I miss the days when caddies were high school and college kids, they were much more humble and appreciative.

jeffwarne

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2024, 12:38:54 PM »



At the end of the round, I looked back on the experience at BB Old absolutely differently than if I had a caddy like we had at the previous courses.  When your MANDATORY caddy is terrible, it ruins the day.




Wait....caddies are mandatory at BB?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2024, 02:06:20 PM »
Bad caddie = bad experience.
Turn it around.
While they might be getting paid from the caddie perspective it can be 'Bad golfer = bad experience' or likely worse 'Asshole golfer = bad experience'.
atb

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2024, 05:09:33 PM »
I apologize in advance, because I want to react here to parts of this conversation I find a bit grating. Full disclosure, I have never played with a caddie, but I've play in rounds where others had them. I know people who were caddies, and would even consider caddying as a hobby if I'd never injured my back. I obviously mean no disrespect to anyone involved here, but I do want to speak up.

I think they're an anachronism.

I couldn't agree more with Niall here. Caddies exist as a remnant of a time with a fairly fixed class system. We've held on to them, I think, in theory more than in practice. The pros use them, but more as teammates than as a service. The rich af clubs still use them. They are also a luxury service at resorts, which makes sense as well. The vast majority of courses, however, do not use them.

We need to remember that a class system is bad. Most Americans thankfully don't even really know what that means, but if you haven't read the Lord of the Rings while understanding that Frodo is upper class, and Sam is working class, then you haven't really understood Tolkien's writing, and you won't see that Sam is the actual main character.

This presents a real quandary when thinking about caddie services provided today. Ideally we should see caddies as course guides to people unfamiliar with a course (which is why they thrive at resorts), or as a teammate-esque partner at a club -- where the members should know the caddies personally, and have a professional-client relationship with them:

Bad caddie = poor club management.

Caddies are bad because they have either not been trained, they are inexperienced, or of poor work ethic.

Lots of caddies are classified as independent contractors (sometimes when they shouldn't be) so this take doesn't make much sense to me. If a club wants to have a serious commitment to caddies, they would make them employees with long-term contracts, provide training, and pay them regardless of whether they are on the bag. This means paying taxes that that entails. You can't just bring in independent contractors and expect them to perform like trained/committed employees, especially in a service industry.

I miss the days when caddies were high school and college kids, they were much more humble and appreciative.

This kind of attitude drives me crazy. You're hiring someone to provide you a service, and you want them to be appreciative? What does that even mean? You engaged in a business transaction, you're not doing them a favor. Beyond that, it entirely ignores the fact that we probably shouldn't be allowing high schoolers to engage in caddie services simply because the amount of sun damage could have serious health effects later in life, and we know they don't use the protections they should.

a caddy who proceeds to hand you a club on the first hole that when perfectly struck and hit exactly on the line told to, ends up either out of bounds or in a spot from which the next shot cannot be played from...

Perhaps the caddie over/under estimate's the player's driving distance, and perhaps the player over/underestimates their driving distance. I can see their being caddies that make the wrong calls, but I think maybe the first or second hole isn't the hole to judge them on.

At the end of the day, I think there are very few use cases where caddies should even exist, and in most of the areas where they do exist there are plenty of reason for them unprofessional on occasion. If the clubs/resorts aren't providing caddie services that provide long-term employment with a living wage, then caddie services will effectively be a glorified hobby. If that's the case, people shouldn't be expecting professionalism. This isn't the Victorian era, and I'm a bit weirded out by folks who I see pining for those archaic class dynamics.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2024, 11:21:58 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Michael Moore

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2024, 05:35:45 PM »
"We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are." - Anais Nin
 
As a curious and engaging conversationalist, I have found just about every caddy I have ever had to be the same.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2024, 07:22:20 PM »
Wait....caddies are mandatory at BB?


We were told our group (me and two boys) needed a caddy (one...for me...boys carried their own bags.  The single that played with us also was told to take a caddy.


Maybe the case for four visitors?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Rob Marshall

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2024, 07:32:11 PM »
"At the end of the day, I think there are very few use cases where caddies should even exist, and most of the one's where they do exist there are plenty of reason for them unprofessional on occation. If the clubs/resorts aren't providing caddie services that provide long-term employment with a living wage, then caddie services will effectively be a glorified hobby. If that's the case, people shouldn't be expecting professionalism. This isn't the Victorian era, and I'm a bit weirded out by folks who I see pining for those archaic class dynamics."
[/size][/color]
[/size]Pretty sure the Evan Scholarship participants would disagree with you. [/color]
[/size][/color]

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Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2024, 10:36:08 PM »
Pretty sure the Evan Scholarship participants would disagree with you.

Obviously sending needy kids to college is a good thing, but there is nothing about caddying that compels the Western Golf Association to chose these kids. They could do as well to send any deserving kids to college, instead of packaging it in a caddie-only program. That's their prerogative, and I think it's a reasonable one, but again, I think there is little reason to employ literal children as low-cost labor under the banner of them gaining some life lessons in place of wages. Especially when they are far more prone to long-term health risks from working long hours in the sun than adults are, but are often far less aware of those risks.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2024, 10:38:47 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Tim_Weiman

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2024, 01:12:44 AM »
Matt,


Your comment suggesting caddies shouldn’t exist brings to mind a high school kid that was a caddy at Sand Ridge in Cleveland that used to request my bag.


I doubt he would agree with you.  He loved the opportunity to caddy. He loved being outside. He loved the exercise. He loved the interaction with members. He was quite happy with the money.


Also, I’m pretty sure he never viewed his job through a class system lens.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2024, 03:44:54 AM »
Your comment suggesting caddies shouldn’t exist brings to mind a high school kid that was a caddy at Sand Ridge in Cleveland that used to request my bag.

I doubt he would agree with you.  He loved the opportunity to caddy. He loved being outside. He loved the exercise. He loved the interaction with members. He was quite happy with the money.
I certainly have no reason to doubt that your are saying. I also certainly have no reason to doubt that the child has little-to-no knowledge of the externalities and long term health impacts of working such long hours in the sun at such a young age. I understand that I'm an outlier here, and yes, there is welcome benefit from limited child labor for everyone involved. That shouldn't mean that they should be receiving substandard wages. If they're willing to work for minimum wage, that's all well and good, but any unpaid or below-standard pay internship should effectively exist as a technical apprenticeship, where the intern is receiving a costly education in exchange for their labor. I would find the concept that young caddies, doing unassisted/unmonitored loops, as a form of technical education more than a bit incredulous.

Again, the heath risks of long-term sun exposure at such a young age is a separate issue. If I could easily convince people that youths shouldn't be working long hours in the sun as lifeguards or caddies, especially between peak hours (about 10am to 2pm), we wouldn't be having this conversation, but I understand that most folks are perfectly fine to dismiss the risks involved.

Also, I’m pretty sure he never viewed his job through a class system lens.
You have again mixed very different issues. I see and celebrate caddie-client relationships when they are professional. My point about class is that some folks here seem to be frustrated with some rando that has been assigned their bag, as if you just can't find good help these days. That's not how an egalitarian business relationships exists. If you want a professional caddie, then by all means, the club should employee them professionally. You should hire a caddie you know or have researched, just like you would with any other professional.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 03:59:32 AM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Sean_A

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Re: Bad caddie = bad experience?
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2024, 04:18:44 AM »
Bad caddie = bad experience.
Turn it around.
While they might be getting paid from the caddie perspective it can be 'Bad golfer = bad experience' or likely worse 'Asshole golfer = bad experience'.
atb

Uhhh, the golfer is the customer. Don’t want customers, don’t caddie.


Never had a really good or bad caddie experience. But I have no interest in taking caddies. I would be far more interested in hiring bag carrying kids.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 04:21:35 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

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