[Jordan Wall]

I am sure getting tired and certainly bored with some of the new courses that have come out within the last few years (say for a few).  I know, this has probably been talked about, but courses are just boring now.

Doesnt it seem dumb to try and replicate PVGC, CPC, ANGC, Merion, NGLA, etc etc etc all the time??  One of the most popular courses in my area, and one I dont really mind playing to be honest, is a replication of Pine Valley.  A long long time ago (03' or 04' I think) there was a thread on the course, Washington National.  It seems every hole is a replication of something I've seen from Pine Valley.  On those commercials from the Golf Channel the backround courses are replicas of Augusta's 12th hole, and why that is not what the commercial is about, you can really notice it.  A very very private course in my area -Seatle Golf Club- has a couple holes replicating Augusta.  Over here there is a course just like Merion, over there you can play a 'better' version of Augusta's 12th, and right now we are at this great course, just like Pine Valley.  It seems dumb and frustrating.

Anyways, it seems so many courses are trying to replicate courses that, quite honestly, just cant be replicated.  Let me tell you, I am bored and tired of it.  It seems to me that courses with beautiful land should not try and replicate courses, but they should be original, dont you agree??  Once you've played Augusta's 12th hole 15 times -and all on different courses- doesnt it make you wonder if a different great golf hole could be put there?  Do you think any really good courses could have been made that are instead 'replica courses'?  I dont know if its just me, but when I see what Washington National and some of these other courses had to work with, and what ended up coming out of the land, it makes me wonder why there are so many replicas.  I am bored!

Does anything good ever come out of replicated courses??

[Kyle Harris]

See NGLA

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

Should great architecture as manifested in the design of a given hole be confined to but one location ?

I must say that Fazio's replication of approach shots at PV is most impressive.

Why should a course that contains a hole or holes that are deemed to be of great architectural merit be boring ?

I could play the 6th, 8th and 18th holes at NGLA every day for the rest of my life and never be bored.

But, perhaps others seek the next visual thrill versus inherently good architecture.

[Steve_Lovett]

Jordan,

Which holes at Seattle GC "replicate" Augusta National?  

Replicating timeless strategies is a good thing, especially when adapted to peculiarities of each site.

Trying to stylistically replicate holes in completely dissimilar environments (i.e. Washington National & Pine Valley) can feel very contrived, particularly if the strategic/design elements of the hole are not considered, but rather only the "look".  



 

[Mike Erdmann]

Jordan,

I have no idea why anyone would even make a remote comparison between Washington National and Pine Valley, but I'd chalk that up to marketing hype.  It's been a few years since I played Washington National, but I don't believe there's any effort at all to replicate any holes from Pine Valley in any way.  The only conceivable way I can see someone drawing a comparison between the two is that Washington National has some sandy waste areas, but it'd be inaccurate to say it's an attempt to replicate Pine Valley.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jordan

There is a difference between a "replica" course or hole and a "tribute" course. World Woods in FL is Fazio's "tribute" to PV & ANGC. JN's Bear's Best in Las Vegas is a "replica" course comprised of JN holes at various courses.

[SPDB]

Jordan -
How many of these replica courses have you seen that got your ire up so much (beyond Washington Nat'l)?

[Mike McGuire]

I am sure getting tired and certainly bored with some of the new courses that have come out within the last few years

Perhaps some of the higher budget courses could install Xbox's on the tees, or a skateboard ramp in the go for it zone on the par 5's . Anything to hold the interest of the younger player.

[PThomas]

the laws of supply and demand will determine their fate!

and if they are successful, so what?  if they either replicate or pay a tribute to courses that most people can't play, is that so bad?

[Jordan Wall]

I dont mean some of the nicer courses.
NGLA, World Woods, etc.

But I mean many municipal and lower end courses that just replicate things (or try to) that simply cant be replicated.  Its quite frustrating to pay 90$ for a course and have some one tell you 'boy, I bet this is what Pine Valley is like'.  I think there are too many courses that try to replicate holes and courses, and I really dont like.  Why not use the land for something original and new?

And what I really meant was that there are so many copies that are so bad, so why continue making them??  I am not talking about WW, NGLA, but the many courses that simply cant do it.  You guys actually like thoses courses??

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement.

"Boy, I'll bet this is what Pine Valley is like."

I'll take that bet (and that person's money).

How do they know?

If you're shelling out $90.00 for a "lower end course" than the golf situation in Seattle is more desperate than I thought.  

Can you cite any specific bad copies? Without something to work off of I'm not sure how to respond.

I've seen a few "bad applications of an architectural concept" and "missed copy oppurtunities" in my playing life. Bad copies? Not really, most of the copy holes that I've seen played poorly because of bad maintenance, and not bad design.

[Dan Boerger]

I'm of mixed feelings on this ...

Good luck trying to replicate holes at NGLA, for example, without some of the prevailing winds, not to mention some of the soil differences from place to place. What's more, I find these composite courses clearly without any sort of personality. What makes the 18th a PV so challenging, IMO, is that you've just had 17 holes of "better keep your shots in play or else".

That said, anything that gives golfers pause to think about the layout of a hole, the architect, the time period he worked in, etc., can only help further the understanding of the game. Not long ago I played at Aronimink with guest who had played at the Ross Tribute course in Boyne, Michigan. He was extremely excited to play the original hole (11 I believe).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jordan,

So we have maybe 17 replica courses out of 17,000?  Doesn't seem like too many to me......some golfers like them a lot, and most would play them at least once, if not once a year, plus whatever outings they might have scheduled on them.

The Tour 18 here in DFW sits on some great golf property.  I think they would have had a better course had they designed it to use the land, rather than to replicate holes, so I see your point.  On the other hand, for a while, it was the king of the courses, and everyone wanted to play it.  Later, maintenance issues - which would sink any course - kept play down.

A question for all -

I was surprised by a client last week who asked if a theme course, either Scottish links, Seth Raynor, or Shinnecock Hills would be a marketing advantage in DFW. This is a true housing course, but does have some north Texas prairie and wide enough corridors to keep some of that look.

Since Trip Davis has designed one of the better replicas at the Tribute not far down the road, I eliminated that idea in favor of an original, or one of the other two.

I started a Seth styled course way east of town, but with new owners, its got some steep bank bunkers and a few Raynor holes and features, but we drifted away from a true Raynor tribute.  To my knowledge, no one has done a Shinny type course, and the grasslands probably lend itself to that.

What do you think?  Is there a marketing advantage for such a tribute course? If so, which one?

[Paul Payne]

I think basic classic design elements will probably always be repeated (like the Redan) and I really don't see a problem with that if it is done well and the design kept fresh.

I am a little leary however about tribute courses and the like. I have only played one, Bears Best in Atlanta. I did not enjoy the course much at all. Firstly it was cart only and I am indeed an avid walker (I don't just say that I really do walk). Secondly the flow of the course from hole to hole really felt very stilted to me. Each hole was very nice on its own but they didn't seem to connect to one another and some felt very forced into the landscape.

It seems the whole concept in this case would be counter to what I would expect a good architect to do once given a piece of property to build upon.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Can you cite any specific bad copies? Without something to work off of I'm not sure how to respond.

 

Washington National is one.  Seattle golf club has a couple holes.  I know my dad played a few in Palm Springs with replica holes but I didnt play back then, so I dont know the names.  I just think that maybe if there are courses that are so good and no one can actually replicate them, then why even try??  It makes no sense, and why not be original??

This is what is said on a course review of WNGC (WA National), and right on the website...why??

"The fourteenth bares a striking resemblences to the vaunted Pine Valley Golf Club".

Heres the course tour:
http://www.washingtonnationalgolfclub.com/ShowSite.asp?menu=golfcourse&nav=holebyhole

[Kyle Harris]

"The fourteenth bares a striking resemblences to the vaunted Pine Valley Golf Club".

One hole resembles an ENTIRE course?  

[Jordan Wall]

Kyle either play the course or look at the profile.  It is not just one hole.  Look at the course tour of #10, it shows the waste bunkers or whatever, which are on every hole.  It is the hole course, and I really think it would have been better if an original design would have come out of it.  It does not have a lot of architectural value on the course, certainly compared to PVGC.

Another thing I hate...the profiles...

This is course JUST like PVGC...a full 7400 yards (500 yards longer then PVGC) ...beautiful waste bunkers (really just a waste of space that detracts) ...and beautiful tall trees exactly like those at PVGC (though none of them really are) ...uggg, and the same thing can be said about other replica courses.  It's annoying.

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

You're preaching to the choir regarding pretty much everything. I think you'll find as you add more classic courses to your experience that your frustration stems from the fact that these so-called holes are NOTHING like the originals.

The 14th you cite is a bastardization of the Hell's Half Acre Hole at PV. That green is nothing like the PV hole, and the hole is simply too long.

One concept that does work, and I am quite fond of this course is what Stephen Kay and Ron Whitten did at The Architects' Club in Phillipsburg, NJ.

http://www.thearchitectsclub.com/

Each hole there is done in the supposed style of the architect, and not a direct copy of any hole.

Some of the better holes are the 2-9, and 14-18.

The Thomas Hole and the Mackenzie hole are weak, IMO. They're also poorly adapted. The Flynn hole is alright but really nothing like a Flynn hole in strategy.

However, the Wilson hole is superb, and the Tillinghast hole could be lifted from Bethpage Black or Philly Cricket, and would fit in any of those courses quite well.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Tall trees just like PV?  I think the trees may have been there long before PV existed.  

I just played Tiburon in FL which featured waste areas consisting of native shells.  Does that mean that Norman copied from Pine Valley because they were scrubby areas?

Would you classify any course with an island green as a blatant rip-off of Sawgrass even though the rest of the course bares no resemblance?  

I can understand you saying that you don't find the design appealing and wish they had done more with the property. But I can't see how you would classify Washington National as a replica because it shares some design elements with another course.  If that is the criteria that you use to say its a replica you should be tired of NGLA and WW as well.  

Oh yeah and Kyle, I second the assessment on The Architects Club!

[rjsimper]

I'll take a replica course or a tribute course eagerly over crappy architecture.

[Bill_McBride]

A whole course of Jack's Best?

How many high fades would you have to hit?

[Peter_Herreid]

Jordan--

Calm down, son!  You need to look up the difference between "replicate" and "resemble"...

Washington National (of which I used to be a men's club member) is not and was never meant to be a "replica" course of PVGC.  It resembles it in much the same fashion that I resemble Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren....To the unknowing or uncaring there is some vague physical similarity...I use that fact sometimes to allow someone who does not know me to pick me out of a crowd, and you what---It works---

To say Washington National resembles or bears some similarity to PVGC is just a marketing ploy--relax, there's no deception there.  99.999% of the people up here will never have the opportunity to know the difference, so what is it of your concern if they think  WN is "just like Pine Valley"--big deal!

Enjoy the fact that you are getting to experience some education to the contrary at an early age.

By the way, to say that any holes at Seattle Golf Club "replicate" Augusta National is like my believing that some of my college dates "resembled" Cheryl Ladd or Farrah Fawcett at the time--I didn't know the difference, but it didn't affect my "enjoyment" of the architecture!

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