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RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Found another interesting article. Have any of the restoration archies found some examples or do they generally not dig down 12-20 inches into the greens during a restoration?

Sub-Irrigated Greens at the St. Louis Country Club
USGA 1921
The chief problems that have confronted all green committees on golf
courses located in the Mississippi Valley have come primarily from the
variable conditions of moisture characteristic of this section. Courses in these states are not blessed by heavy dews and fogs, which contribute so much to the simplification of green keeping in some other parts of the country. Hence when sub-irrigation was agitated a decade or so ago as promising a solution of the moisture problem, it was eagerly seized upon and widely applied in these parts, particularly with respect to the construction of greens. After adequate trial it is pertinent to ask, “Has sub-irrigation of putting greens fulfilled all of the hopes of green committees?” The writer would not attempt to give a general answer, and such comments as are made have reference to experience with two courses near St. Louis, but mainly with reference to the St. Louis Country Club course.
When the St. Louis Country Club decided to move from its old home
at Clayton, Missouri, in 1910, to its present location two miles west, the construction of the greens was considered a matter of importance equal to that of t,he clubhouse itself. All were agreed that they should be subirrigated.
The course was laid by Mr. Charles R. Macdonald and the golf architect, Seth J. Raynor, but the work of construction was left to
local hands.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 10:22:04 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 12:10:57 PM »
An additional question;
Are sub-irrigation systems used today or is it all above ground?
Are these systems use limited now to the type of green construction?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 01:49:01 PM »
Ralph:

In this early era don't you think by "sub-irrigated" they merely meant constructing greens in hollows or bowl-shaped formations simply because those formations naturally held rain-water better. This early time on most golf courses was before artificial irrigation methods.

Look at what Bernard Darwin said about the look and construction of golf courses up until about the end of the Victorian Age (about 1903);

"'The laying out of courses used once to be a rather a rule-of-thumb business done by rather simple-minded and unimaginative people who did not go far beyond hills to drive over, hollows for putting greens and, generally speaking, holes formed on the model of a steeplechase course.'"

See that---eg 'hollows for putting greens'. That formation was used back then on many inland courses primarily to hold water better and longer. Tom MacWood thinks Bernard Darwin was being humorous with that remark but it sounds awful logical to me.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 01:52:50 PM by TEPaul »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 02:06:35 PM »
Tom,

What Ralph is referring to (I think..) is the Purrwick irrigation system.  Water is held at the bottom of the green using a form of plunger to regulate the level.

I would love to see one on an old course.  I have seen it in use in Germany.  The biggest drawback is the lack of undulations you can have on a purrwick green.

Brian.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 02:07:38 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2006, 02:11:33 PM »
Actually, with the article is a diagram of the piping.
This one used perferated pipe. I have also seen dispersion heads that look like giant shower heads.
TEP-I can e-mail you the entire article if you want. It includes photos and drawings.

Here is more of the text.

In excavating for the greens the clay subsoil was removed to a depth
of 12 inches and the tile laid in grooves cut with a long hand-trowel. In
the light, of developments since that time it is agreed that there are un-doubted advantages in a deeper bed, and in any new construction the beds would be excavated to a depth of 20 inches or more. In the laying of the tile in the Country Club greens 6-inch pipe was used to form the main line, with 4-inch tile laid as laterals. In some of the greens, the system took the form of a continuous one, winding its way back and forth in sinuous fashion, from the inlet to the outlet valve. As to the respectivemerits of these methods, an examination of the greens fails to reveal any advantage in the one over the other; yet as a practical proposition the effects of stoppage in the continuous system might involve more serious consequences than in the other.
After the layingof the tiles in grooves at the bottom of the excavations,
they were covered with coarse cinders, Sorming a layer of 6 or 7 inches, in the nature of an auxiliary to the drainage system. Cinders were adopted in perference to sand because it was felt that they would stay in place and hold the tile in surer alignment. In addition, the merits of cinders had been proclaimed as a means of obviating the earthworm problem.
This latter supposition has not proved correct in our experience, although the worm problem has never reached serious porportions on our course.
On top of the cinders a layer of earth was placed varying in depth
from 3 to 4 inches. On top of this the seed bed of about 2 inches in depth was formed, consisting of a mixture of sand, earth, muck, humus, manure and some lime.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 02:13:03 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2006, 07:02:22 PM »
Ralph thanks for posting that interesting article.

During my research I spoke to Jack Litvay, then the super at St Louis CC, and I think it was he who dug up those green (this was probably back in the late ‘80s).

He told me about the things in the article - adding the following info:

The valves involved were gate valves made by the Jenkins Valve Co. He took the valves to the company and they identified them as being of the 19-teen’s era.

Ralph, who wrote this article? - and if you will, I’d love to have a copy of it, with the diagrams.

I believe I made mention of this in my book

Please E Mail me at ggb313@aol.com
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 07:03:27 PM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2006, 07:43:03 PM »
George
The article is on it's way. I think you will enjoy the drawings.
It would be interesting to know if Jack Litvay can confirm the pipe routing under the 12th green.
Do you know if it was much used on the east coast? I found it interesting they say it was primarily used in the Mississippi states.
BTW, this was a USGA green section article from 1921.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2006, 10:05:14 PM »
Ralph:

Thank you, I'd very much appreciate it if you'd email me the article. tpaul25737@aol.com

Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sub-irrigated Greens; Have any been found during restorations?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2006, 10:10:12 PM »
Ralph-

Please send a copy my way as well to Hunt01@charter.net

Jack's retired and out in Colorado, I believe. I'll check with the super at SLCC and see what he knows.

Thanks in advance,

Hunt