News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kingston Heath (pictures)
« on: January 21, 2006, 01:16:58 PM »
A few pictures of this magical golf-course. As you can tell, I was seduced by the amazing bunkering. If it gets any better than this, I would like to see it!

I enjoyed my round here as much as anything I found "down-under". It is true that the site does not have the same wonderful sloping terrain that lends such majesty to Royal Melbourne - but there can be few better examples of amazing bunkering helping bring to life a course which is quite flat (not wholly - 16 and 17, for example, have a lot of slope).

The "rap" on the course is that it is tight/claustrophobic compared to Royal Melbourne. I did not find that to be the case - certainly it is not a narrow or tight course overall.

The course was in fantastic condition and the greens were what I was expecting - but did not always find - in Melbourne (firm, fast and true). If you do not know how to play out of bunkers with very firm sand, and struggle a bit on quick greens, you can quickly run up a score on a course like this.

Similar to Royal Melbourne, I was struck by the relative absence of long par fours - the first is 418m, the 17th 421m, but all the rest were under 400m.

One quirky feature of Melbourne golf - exemplified by this course - is that players take their trollies across the greens. If you tried that in England you would be thown out without discussion - but it tells you something about how firm the greens are that this can be the practice.












































« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 01:18:14 PM by Philip Gawith »

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 03:45:40 PM »
Philip.
I'm on your side.I think it is an amazing course - especially considering how small it is.It never feels crowded or cramped and there are so many fun shots to hit.

It is amazing just how many people in Melbourne criticize the course.
The most common complaints are:
Too many blind tee shots - 2,6,8,16 and second to 17.

Not enough sand in the bunkers (every bad bunker player complains about that in Melbourne)

Not enough long par fours.

Pulled out too many trees. There is a British Open runner-up who lives in Melbourne who insists they 'ruined the course' when they pulled out the trees.Needless to say,he hits short and very straight

Too many aeroplanes flying overhead.

No long par three. (130,170 and 190 yards)

Par fives all go the same way.

Pat Howard

Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 04:05:05 PM »
A side note to Phillip's last comment about taking the trolleys accross the greens. When I played TOC at St. Andrew's a few years back with Sir Henry Hutchinson, an older member of the club with whom we stayed with, he would set his bag down right on the green, often within 10 or 20 feet of the hole. It was similar to an old Jones bag, canvas with no stand, so no real harm done. I thought this was a bit peculiar, but I enjoyed it as part of the experience. Who was I to question the etiquette of a Royal & Ancient member on his home course!

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 05:46:20 PM »
Philip,

Excellent pictures, your whetting my appetite for my game there next month. #10 looks like a great short three, beautiful bunkers, tightly-guarded yet inviting and quaint.

Mike,

Did the club recently complete a tree removal program? If so, how extensive was the work?

TK

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 07:32:01 PM »
Tyler, the club completed a very extensive tree removal program in the early 1990's (along with bunker restoration).  Hopefully Graeme Grant, who as the superintendant drove the changes, will see this thread and clarify exactly what was done.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 09:55:35 PM »
I was reading Clayton's book this morning, and he mentioned that Graeme Grant removed all of the 'native but not local' mahogany trees (a type of gum tree)which were larger than the original vegetation.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2006, 12:05:10 AM »
I was reading Clayton's book this morning, and he mentioned that Graeme Grant removed all of the 'native but not local' mahogany trees (a type of gum tree)which were larger than the original vegetation.

Which book might that be?

TK

Wayne Hewitt

Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2006, 07:17:41 AM »
Put me down as a huge fan of this styled bunkering as well. I cant get enough of the sandbelt courses, even though I havnt had the chance top play there yet. I am playing at Eagle Ridge in the Hacker Cup this coming weekend, and I am very much looking forward to that. I think I will have to go over and have a look at Moonah Links while im in the area.

I also design courses for Microsofts Links 2003. My current design, Crooked Creek, is very much influenced by Kingston Heath with a little bit of Brookwater thrown in for good measure. I will post an ingame screenshot below. I would love to hear your comments on it and let me know if I am heading in the right direction.

Thanks Guys.

PS. Apologies to the dialup guys, but I hope its worth it.


TEPaul

Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2006, 08:07:57 AM »
I'm very impressed!

Truly.

ForkaB

Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2006, 08:16:14 AM »
I'm very impressed!

Truly.

Tom

Are you OK?

A four/five word post?  Have you been reading Pascal?

I'm impressed!

Relatively loquatiously

Rich

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2006, 11:15:43 AM »
Great photos!

What most here who've never set foot on KH will miss is the expansive feeling of the fairways and terrain for a very small parcel of land (160ac....I think??). While most of the holes are framed by a light rough, then heavier rough(bushy or fescued), then a line of gum and/or tea trees, fairway width is plentiful and variable. Some holes do open along the side to other's but never like the US where just a line of big oaks or elms do the framing.

What struck me as brillant about the design and layout, was the angles, often acute, off the tee that allowed a player an approach line over certain bunkering. In many of the mid-length four's, a poorly sided drive left a visually intimidating approach that possessed a very real depth perception issue. Good tee shot placement is instantly rewarded with an approach shot that may have a bunker or so along it's path, yet will face ample green and little or no depth perception problems.

  Unlike RM, the land's relative flatness needed this extensive bunkering to challenge the player's mental abilities. This course, more than almost any other I've ever played renders length mostly mute. The 2nd time around, I found myself calling this the "Merion of Melbourne" with sheer compliment.

  Nowhere have I ever seen such amazing bunkering play so perfectly. It's the kind of course any player could play EVERY DAY over and over and never tire of! Yes, one does need to learn how to hit off of sand that is tightly compressed (think PVGC's waste areas) and like elsewhere in the Sandbelt, the putter carries the premium position in your game's toolkit.

  I've not yet gone back down under and played the likes of Barnbougle & St. Andrews Beach/Gunmatta, and I know many Aussies think either have surpassed KH for place in their top ten, but I'd be hardpressed to surpress my desire to run right out and plan at least 36 to play here again (and again)....it's that much fun!! ;D

Thanks Philip!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 11:20:10 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Wayne Hewitt

Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2006, 04:51:07 PM »
I'm very impressed!

Truly.



Tom



Are you OK?

A four/five word post?  Have you been reading Pascal?

I'm impressed!

Relatively loquatiously

Rich



He is just speechless after seeing such an awsomely (is there such a word  ???) designed greensite  ;D
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 04:52:26 PM by Wayne Hewitt »

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2006, 02:00:56 AM »
I was reading Clayton's book this morning, and he mentioned that Graeme Grant removed all of the 'native but not local' mahogany trees (a type of gum tree)which were larger than the original vegetation.

James B


Tyler Kearns

I think it is called 'Inside the Ropes'.  I'll check.  I think Mike wrote it about 3 or 4 years ago, covering his experiences as a player (from 14 to 44) and his more recent experience as an architect/builder.  An interesting read with a lot of related stories from life on the pro tour.

James B

Edit - I checked, it is called 'Golf from the Inside'.  I am almost embarassed to say I bought my copy from a specials table at the book shop about three years ago, for $10 (Aust).  It's worth much more than that.  Lovely insights into golf in Europe, the UK, the melbourne Sandbelt and a short 2002 visit through some US highlights.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 05:22:34 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2006, 02:39:52 AM »
Mike - when I read that list of criticisms, it prompts two thoughts:
 - that these people have too much time on their hands;
- that box-ticking/template driven golf course analysis is simply foolish. Leaving aside the trees and the aeroplanes, all those other comments are factually true - but so what? I just look upon it as a wonderful and distinctive golf course - and everything that Steve says about the strategy of the course is completely true. You can find yourself on the short grass, but if you are in the wrong place, your second can appear pretty daunting, even though the distances involved are seldom that long.

As for the blind shots, I suppose that is a feature of KH and Royal Melbourne, both having quite a few blind shots. But they are not "tricky" blind in the manner of the 3rd at NSW which you commented on elsewhere where absence of local knowledge will certainly hurt you.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2006, 05:20:32 PM »
Philip

I couldn't agree more - the criticism always leaves me shaking my head.
All it really does is expose the ignorance of those making it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2006, 08:55:15 PM »
Philip:

You have just coined a new term for me:  the "box tickers".

I've met many of them over the years, and they drive me batty.  Now I know what to call them.  There are even a couple who frequent this site.

I was starting to understand from your comments on other courses that you are a very good player, but the clincher was saying that Kingston Heath was not a tight course at all.  Unless they have removed a lot of trees in the past few years, you are a very straight driver.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 08:56:52 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2006, 09:35:51 PM »
Tom,

I know you think Kingston Heath is tight but I have never thought of it that way.
There are some narrow corridors to drive it down - 3,9,11,13 and 16 - but 3,9 and 11 are so tight they are normanlly irons and 13 is short enough to get away with an a 3 wood.
Going left on 12 is narrow as well and 16 is just dangerous with all the unplayable lies on the right.
I suppose 18 is really narrow but that newish bunker is so penal most hit 3 woods there as well.

I guess I just defeated my argument by giving a bunch of holes that are narrow!

Some courses set-up well to the eye obviously and KH has always done that for me.
Perhaps it's just a tight course but one where it is not that difficult to hit fairways.
Woodlands is the same for me - the tight holes are so tight you hit shorter clubs and miss fewer fairways than 'wider'courses.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2006, 12:42:12 AM »
Philip:


I was starting to understand from your comments on other courses that you are a very good player, but the clincher was saying that Kingston Heath was not a tight course at all.  Unless they have removed a lot of trees in the past few years, you are a very straight driver.

Although I have only played nine holes with Phillip, I can confidently say "WRONG!" ;D

I agree with his view that the course did not feel nearly as tight as I expected.  I do not hit it straight either.  Newcastle and TPC Sawgrass seemed very tight.  Woodlands and Kingston Heath did not seem nearly as tight to me off the tee.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2006, 03:07:45 AM »
Tom - it is a crying shame that Jason had to spoil my moment in the sun. I think I may have to immortalise that quote somewhere. Alas, some people will find it very amusing. Generally I am long and wild! My lifetime's search is how to avoid a debilitating sequence of pushes and hooks!

As for "box-tickers" - it is quite a well known term of abuse on this side of the water for people who mindlessly genuflect to the latest politically correct nostrum, usually in the field of corporate governance.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2006, 09:52:17 AM »
   It is interesting to me that the vast majority of people I have played with on this site have a similar game to me.  High single digit handicaps prone to a bit of wildness.  

   At that level, any hole can be a birdie or a big number.  I think it is a pretty good level of play for having a realistic view of how a course plays for a better player while at the same time experiencing the challenges facing a high handicapper.

Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2006, 11:07:57 AM »
Besides RMGC and Kingston Heath, which other courses would you guys recommend in the area. (I am going there for 3½ month soon!)


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2006, 11:46:06 AM »
Besides RMGC and Kingston Heath, which other courses would you guys recommend in the area. (I am going there for 3½ month soon!)


Philip - Here is a great overview  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinioncohn1.html.

I only played about 6 courses.  I definitely recommend Woodlands, a side trip to Barnbougle and a trip to Sidney to see New South Wales.  Recent threads talk about all of these courses if you look at recent posts of Phillip and me.

If I could have figured out how to get there, next on my list would have been Royal Adelaide.  Others I really would have liked to have seen include Portsea, Norman's course at Moonah, Victoria, Commonwealth, Port Fairy, and about 20 others.

My impression is that you really cannot go wrong on the sandbelt.  All of them are good.  

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2006, 11:53:55 AM »
Mike Clayton :I know you think Kingston Heath is tight but I have never thought of it that way...

Mike, after seeing you play, I don't think there's a narrow course in the world.

Seriously, Kingston Heath is a course where you have to know where you are going to miss, because if your swing allows you to miss your drive left or right, it's a narrow course.

Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2006, 03:56:46 PM »
Jason,

Thank you. It seems like one of the special spots on Earth when it comes to good golf courses.

Philip

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Kingston Heath (pictures)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2006, 08:25:14 PM »
Philip great pictures.  I was lucky enough to play there in 1990.  In the pictures it always looks like the bunkers have not evolved much, that they closely resemble opening day.  The only thing I found better than the course was the membership.  Couldn't have been nicer to an outsider from the States.  I couldn't help but think it would not have been that way for an Australian in the USA.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back