[Andy Troeger]

Patrick's idea of when you can't reach the tee from the green is probably not a bad one as a rule of thumb -- just couch in terms of an average to good player being unable to hit it high enough with any club in his bag, rather than raw distance which would penalize a long par 3.  I mean, by that measure a 260 yard par 3 that drops 30 feet and plays with a strong prevailing wind which is reachable for the majority of golfers with less than a 3W would be unreachable by all but the strongest players going in the opposite direction, but I don't think anyone is going to call a 30 foot drop goofy golf.

Doug,
  What you say is true, but I can't think of any other types of holes other than the super long ones that I've played where I wouldn't have been able to get it back to the tee. The 14th at Stonehenge (pictured on the other thread about this topic--see the link towards the top of this one), is probably the closest in that from the back of the tee you can't see the green (I wasn't counting it because they generally put the tee markers somewhere that you can see the green), and it would be challenging to get the ball back up to the tee due to the elevation. I think I could do it, but I'm a fairly strong iron player. Either way, its one of the two holes on the course that to me makes it worth playing!

This might be a case of me just not having played the right holes...being from northern Indiana makes it hard to find large changes in elevation!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Another thought regarding Bethpage Green #15; the holes on the first nine play down the hill and away from the clubhouse, going up and down slight elevation changes in the small hills across Round Swamp Road.  
There is a medium-height hill that plays a large part in the architecture of the second nine; The second nine skirts this hill for several holes, which roughly divides it (Green Course) from the Black Course.  
With basically flat, uninteresting terrain at the bottom of the hill, I wonder if Emmet routed some holes around the hill, and others with tees high up on the hill, in a means to create some interest with the golf holes.  
After the 14th hole, which plays slightly uphill to the foot of the larger hill, and having to place the 15th hole, I could see the merit behind placing the tees high up on the hill, if in fact this hole was Emmet; it creates a golf hole and shot requirement different than the other par threes on the course.  

3 is very much uphill
6 is slightly uphill
11 is across flat ground
15 is markedly downhill

For a point of reference, 15 is located just through the woods from the 4th hole of the Black Course, and play on Black No. 4 can be seen from 15 tee and green.  

Upon thinking about this more recently, I think the par three holes may have been "goofy" if they were all in the same direction (e.g. downhill, drop shot holes, holes across a pond, etc.)

Digging a pond does not always create interest in a golf hole.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

The other question that remains unanswered, probably for fear of offending Tom Doak, is:

Which tee do you prefer on # 10 at Pacific Dunes, the upper or the lower ?

[JeffTodd]

Pat, I think of the 77 yarder at Pocono Manor, very sharply downhill. I don't consider it goofy golf, but I may have a much higher tolerance for quirk or oddity than most.
If nothing else, it was always amusing to play the hole with someone who had never been there before, as it is almost impossible to realize how short a swing is really needed.  It plays like a 20-30 yard pitch if memory serves.

I too thought immediately of #7 at Pocono Manor East. Likewise, I have a high tolerance for quirky holes, and when you combine #7 with #3 on the East course, it might be the two quirkiest one shot holes I have ever played on the same nine hole stretch. That said, if #7 isn't goofy golf it is dangerously close to the goofy threshold. As you mentioned, it really plays like a 30 yard pitch shot. To add to Patrick's point about reaching the tee from the green (a test that Pocono Manor would fail I believe), if you could throw a ball from the tee to the green it's probably goofy golf as well.  

[Forrest Richardson]

If the holes are varied, then I see nothing wrong with the drop shot par-3. It gives the golfer a sense of power, which mixed within a routing can be an interesting sensation. For example, a drop shot par-3 poses all sorts of geometry and physics problems...combined with the feeling of power over the course, it may lead to a fasle sense of cleverness when one comes to a slightly uphill par-3 to a partially blind and partially unknown putting surface. All of a sudden the golfer is confused more than normal. This is OK. It is a dimnsion of golf which needs more exploration.

[Jordan Wall]

What I think is going somewhat un-noticed is the fact that drop shot holes (whether good or bad) can lead to good holes coming after, particularly good uphill holes.  The dropshot hole of 182 yards at my home course sets up two of the courses best holes on the course, the 14th and the beautiful 17th, both uphill.  Plus I think drop shot holes can be very interesting and somewhat amusing to say the least.  It is knid of weird but fun to see an 8-iron or a 9-iron spin back 20 feet from 180 yards!

my home course's drop shot, followed by the 14th, and the nice 17th...the pictures are of the 13th hole (the drop shot) and then the 17th hole.  without the dropshot hole it would be hard to get back uphill to the clubhouse, as the elevation going down from the drop shot is used to go uphill on other holes.

the 13th

the 17th, beautiful

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Andy Troeger,

The 5th hole at Green Brook CC has a par 3 where the front of the green can't be seen from the elevated tee.

Would a reasonable answer be:

Where the tee  can't be reached from the green ?

Pat-

  Are you referring to Green Brook CC (Ross) in West Caldwell?  

  I have never walked, nor played, here.  How is the topography of the land?  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

Yes, Green Brook in North Caldwell, NJ.

But, it's not a Ross golf course.
You're thinking of Crestmont, Essex Fells or Mountain Ridge, three nearby Ross courses.

The topography is on a hill that slopes from high left to low right as you face the golf course from the clubhouse.
It has some pronounced elevation changes on the front nine.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug,

Yes, Green Brook in North Caldwell, NJ.

But, it's not a Ross golf course.
You're thinking of Crestmont, Essex Fells or Mountain Ridge, three nearby Ross courses.

The topography is on a hill that slopes from high left to low right as you face the golf course from the clubhouse.
It has some pronounced elevation changes on the front nine.

Pat-

  Not to thread jack, but whom was the architect?  I thought I read Ross somewhere or the other--may not have been a credible source.  

Was this hole (at Green Brook) meant to bridge difficult terrain?  

#12 at Morgan Hill, which is markedly downhill, was clearly meant to bridge difficult terrain--the "higher" portion of the property, where there are some houses, and a "lower" portion of the property.  I would love to hear from Kelly Blake Moran here.  

[Doug Siebert]

Jordan,

You might be right....sometimes.  But I see too many drop shot par 3s where you go up a hill from the previous green to the tee, play your drop shot, then go back up a hill to tee off from up on high on the next shot.  Like I said, I think too many architects stake out the highest points for teeboxes, especially for par 3s, so there are lots of uphill trips from green to tee.  I'm sure owners like that, means more cart revenue.

[John Goodman]

The 210 yard 5th at FarmLinks (Hurdzan-Fry, Sylacauga AL - home town of Gomer Pyle BTW) drops 158 feet from the back tee to the green.  You can see a picture of it (it's part of a slide show thing) on the club's website (which is www.farmlinksgolfclub.com, I believe).  I've only the played the course three or four times, but I always end up just guessing on what club to hit.  The green (all 8400 sq. feet of it) has some huge undulations in it, so if you have guessed wrong but nonetheless hit a good shot then a three putt is highly likely.  The hole is also where golf balls go to die, as there is extreme junk left, right and short.  

The only thing making the 5th a worthwhile golf hole is the view, which is outstanding.  For me, it qualifies as goofy golf.  

[mike_malone]

 Goofy---Inniscrone's 100 yardish downhill with a blind landing  area  .

    Interesting---- #10 Glen Mills --200 yards  probably 50 feet downhill to one of the most enjoyable greens. The green is huge and has a ridge that runs from front to back on the left side of the green. The shape of the green is trapizoidal.

  As was mentioned earlier it also is how these holes fit into the mix. Glen Mills has another 200 yard par three that is uphill with three or four tiers .

[Kirk Gill]

The 13th at Arrowhead Golf Club in Littleton, CO (by RTJJr.) is a severely downill, drop shot par 3. A bunker is front left, if I remember correctly, and water behind. Adding to the trouble is that you are hitting down between two enourmous jutting sandstone spikes that frame the hole (although thankfully the green is not dead center between the stones, but slightly offset). The green itself holds little interest and is generally maintained in such a fashion that shots will hold, although maintenance is always a problem at this course given its location.

It's probably goofy golf, but it's hugely entertaining, at least once. The cart ride down the hill (I may be incorrect, but I believe that carts are mandatory) is pretty hairy. The site of this course is more memorable than the golf, but this is one hole that stays in your memory banks, so maybe its goofiness is justified.

[Matt MacIver]

Agree completely with #13 @ Arrowhead, very memorable and fun to play but nothing special gca- wise.  

As far "what is the limit for uphill par 3's?".  My limit is ~150 yards...I enjoy the concept with a short iron but think it's too gimmicky with a long iron, or worse.  But that's just me.  

I particularly dislike long-uphill 2nd shots, they just don't feel right and oftentime smack of bad routing.  There's a course in Baltimore where both 9 and 18 have blindish uphill 2nd shots, all to bring you home to the elevated clubhouse.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

Yes, Green Brook in North Caldwell, NJ.

But, it's not a Ross golf course.
You're thinking of Crestmont, Essex Fells or Mountain Ridge, three nearby Ross courses.

The topography is on a hill that slopes from high left to low right as you face the golf course from the clubhouse.
It has some pronounced elevation changes on the front nine.

Pat-

  Not to thread jack, but whom was the architect?  I thought I read Ross somewhere or the other--may not have been a credible source.  

Robert White (1923)[/color]

Was this hole (at Green Brook) meant to bridge difficult terrain?  

I think it's fair to say that.[/color]

#12 at Morgan Hill, which is markedly downhill, was clearly meant to bridge difficult terrain--the "higher" portion of the property, where there are some houses, and a "lower" portion of the property.  I would love to hear from Kelly Blake Moran here.  

[redanman]

Drop shot par 3's: one of my pet-peeves

With respect to par 3's there seems to be a preference to elevate the tee above the green.
I think an over-done sense of "fairness" comes in here.  "It's all in front of you", if you will. Unfortunately many hilly to mountainous courses use these holes over and over again to ridiculous proportions.  Maroon Creek is the prime example - three nearly identical holes - downhill par 3's.  American golfers love their golf spoon-fed to them directional bunkers, visibility, framing, containment for containment's sake, the list goes on and on.  Downhill, visible threes are just one of the worst characters in this bad play.

But, at what differentiation in elevation do the holes transition from good architecture to goofy golf ?
It's not that simple.  It is the whole picture of the hole and terrain.  The 77-yarder at Pocono manor is good clean fun and slope wise it is about a 45% slope downhill to the green.



In addition, how difficult is club selection for the golfer the first time he plays a hole with a substantial elevation differential ?
Once you've played a few, pretty easy.  I've seen more than most and they get tiring.  I respect a sneaky, partially hidden hole much more.

Lastly, is the length of the hole a factor in decisions to elevate tees ?

Shouldn't be if thought out beforehand.  Using only par 3's to eat up downhill yardage isjust lazy.  Flynn used severe down(and up)hill slopes at Lehigh very well.


Just one guy's thoughts.



p.s. See, no color needed!  

[TEPaul]

In a certain sense some of these examples of real drop shot holes, almost always par 3s, and the architects who designed and built them should be thanked regardless of some of the "playability" issues some of these over-thinking wusses on here say.

Why is that? Because if they weren't done the way they were in all likelihood a golf course may not have been built on that site. On thing par 3s are in a routing sense is great "connectors" as well as "separators". A real drop shot par 3 connects the routing where otherwise it would be totally disconnected in that area and much more of  a real pain in the ass than the drop-shot or even "nose-bleed" par 3 is.

redanman;

What would Flynn have done on the site of Lehigh if he did not use the landform of #7 as what it is? In a sense the same goes for #4.

[redanman]

TEP

one option for #7

No reason #7 couldn't just carry straight on up the hill as a play hole, perhaps with a green perched where the fairway bunker is or all the way up as a fiver.

#11 could have attacked the hill downhill in a more sideways iteration and

#4 would have depended on #11, but there are a lot of options there, too.  

Why did you leave #11 out of the mix?

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