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Adam_F_Collins

If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« on: January 20, 2006, 10:42:53 PM »
How much water, maintenance and overhead do you save?
Can you say that you can allow for more playable turf it is allowed to go dormant and not watered? How dry does it have to get before turf dies and won't return?

TEPaul

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 06:14:15 AM »
Interesting question, but Adam this is not exactly the type of subject that produces easy standardized answers that can be applied to every golf course. There're so many variables to consider from course to course---eg type of grass, region, soil type and structure, current type of maintenance practices, root depth etc, etc.

There have been a few pretty informative threads on this subject in the last month or so (they're probably on about page 35 now ;) ).

It occured to me last fall I didn't really understand what dormancy is (and I probably still don't) or the significance of it in a firm and fast maintenance program. But I asked about five supers who are really into firm and fast and low irrigation and organics and they seemed to agree on what they told me about dormancy.

I can't even give you an exact definition for dormancy with grass but it seems that grass of the type of say the fairways of Fishers Island, Newport, Maidstone that do not have fairway irrigation systems can go into dormancy in the summer for perhaps weeks on end and turn a color of really light brown. But if it rains--presto---in a day or so that grass is green again.

That type of grass is conditioned to go into long periods of dormancy like that---essentially that type of grass is very deep-rooted and it's tough, resilient, Darwinian, natural.

But grass that has been conditioned to be dependent on regular or excessive irrigation (and chemicals) is not deep-rooted and consequently does not have a natural period of dormancy or it has a very short period of dormancy. Basically when it turns brown in a potentially very short period of time it can just crap out and die.

At least that's what I was told about dormancy last fall by some firm and fast supers.

Now S. Huffstetter is making some distinction between a condition he calls "drought tolerance" (apparently some form or condition of browning) and "dormancy". I don't know what that distinction would be but I expect him and others to tell us.

This entire subject of low irrigation (organics?) as opposed to excessive regular irrigation and excessive chemical dependency is a complex one. If you can take a course to regular firm and fast playing conditions and much lower irrigation and less chemicals it seems to pay big dividends in playability and also less expense in water and chemicals as well as grass that's a whole lot more inured to weather conditions such as heat and drought---eg grass that's deep-rooted, tough and less apt to die quickly.

That's the good news. The bad news is it may take the program 2-5 years to transition over excessively over-irrigated, chemical dependent grass to that wholly different far drier condition and during that transition there may be some significant turf loss.

The goal is to get to a point where basically the course's grass is so much more "Darwinian" (survival of the fittest) than the excessively irrigated, chemical dependent shallow-rooted lush grass we see today on so many courses.

But to give you some indication of irrigation differences---perhaps 20 years ago HVGC probably used something in the neighborhood of 20 million gallons of irrigation water per year and today they only use about 4-5 million, and a good deal of that is "syringing" which is quite different in application and effect on the grass than normal "irrigation". "Syringing" is a water application  that's basically a horizontal spraying with a hose to cool the grass and not soak the roots structure as is normal "irrigation".
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 06:24:06 AM by TEPaul »

S. Huffstutler

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 08:28:01 AM »
TEP: I pulled my previous post because it sounded kinda nasty. I guess my first question would be "what kinda turf are we talking about?"
My next observation would be that generally a grass is either going to become dormant or not, depending on the weather.....I don't know that you can actually stop a grass from going dormant by virtue of irrigation, unless we are talking about dormancy in response to heat. When I think of dormancy, I think of bermuda in winter. The idea of otherwise "letting" fairways go dormant would be a new one on me, but I've been wrong before.

Regards,

Steve
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 08:29:08 AM by S. Huffstutler »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 08:42:00 AM »
"The idea of otherwise "letting" fairways go dormant would be a new one on me..."


Its a little like a "human induced coma" isn't it. An interesting term to wrap your brain around.

When a plant goes dormant there's a whole series of physical events occuring within the plant. You can manipulate those events. For example, most cool season turf will go dormant when the temps. get high enough and the conditions get dry enough. Its a self preservation mechinism.  However, if you irrigate you have eliminated a factor in the plant going dormant.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 08:51:12 AM »
"When a plant goes dormant there's a whole series of physical events occuring within the plant. You can manipulate those events. For example, most cool season turf will go dormant when the temps. get high enough and the conditions get dry enough. Its a self preservation mechinism.  However, if you irrigate you have eliminated a factor in the plant going dormant."

Craig:

That's basically (in so many words) what I was told last fall by about five firm and fast supers, particularly the dry condition part. Is the above good enough to serve as a definition for dormancy?

Anybody disagree with that?

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 09:22:13 AM »
TEPAUL...I've worked with plants for more than 15 years, and I wish I knew more about plants than I do...they are very complex, yet simple in many ways.

Most people that play golf see only the blades sticking up and think they are seeing the "grass" and they can tell whats going on. If the blades are green, good. If they're brown, somethings wrong.  

For my money, roots are where its at.  Yet, you can't ignore one without harming the other, and unfortunately, in America we tend to pay way more attention to the blade sticking up to the detriment of the roots. We over water, over feed, over cut,and over spray with poisons the blades, with little regard for what effect the water, the ferts, and the mowing have on the roots.

I think the Supers. you talked with that are successful with frim and fast and have healthy, strong turf, understand that there's much more to "grass" than the blades sticking up.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2006, 09:32:05 AM »
Guys,
  Are we talking about bermuda grass or cool season grass....? This could really clear aome things up prior to my response. We let our BERMUDA fwys go dormant and, boy are they awesome....30-40 yards of roll and firm...I'll write more later.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2006, 09:48:35 AM »
Anthony, when it gets warm we let our bent fairways go dormant and they are awesome too!
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mark Brown

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2006, 12:42:36 PM »
Money, your primary grass (Bermuda here), a better, drier playing surface, downtime etc.

TEPaul

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2006, 12:48:42 PM »
Anthony:

We're probably mostly talking about cool season grasses but certainly bermuda and southern grasses should not be overlooked in the slightest in these discussions. Making various distinctions in performance and maintenances practices between them can only help the general education.

Craig:

I agree with you---if someone wants to boil this whole subject down to a single common denominator to be ideally acheived it probably would be deep roots or deeper roots. With that it seems like a whole slew of benefits naturally result.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2006, 04:03:26 PM »
Well, if things vary with the grass type, just please let us know what you know about a particular grass.

I'm asking because I'm trying to get a sense of what kind of golf course model is most economically viable in my region, which is Nova Scotia. However, I'm interested in talking about all types in this thread, so that others can learn what they'd like to know for their own regions.

I'm wondering what kind of grass/turf conditioning is the most inexpensive, yet 'acceptable' combination. I see a lot of brown little mom and pop courses around here that seem to do a good business. I'm trying to figure out how far that old-school, low maintenance model can be pushed when it is combined with better design.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2006, 04:16:30 PM »
Adam, this is just a hunch on my part, but when you talk about maintinence, I think most golfers want nice, true greens, and level tees. If the fairways are firm and fast it will be ok so long as the other two elements are there.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Adam_F_Collins

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2006, 04:56:02 PM »
I agree Craig, that is why I'm asking. How would it be if we maintained decent greens - shaggy, but level tee boxes and brownish, firm fast fairways?

How firm and fast can they be maintained, yet remain healthy and playable, what kind of grass would it take? How much would costs vary in terms of initial versus long term?

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2006, 05:18:33 PM »
Adam, I think your question is site specific.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 10:15:35 PM »
Adam:

Cost is pretty hard to quantify course to course. I call a course firm and fast if a tee shot "through the green" bounces and rolls out 40-50 plus yards.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2006, 10:21:22 PM »
Adam:

Cost is pretty hard to quantify course to course. I call a course firm and fast if a tee shot "through the green" bounces and rolls out 40-50 plus yards.

Sounds like what I'm thinking.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 10:21:36 PM by Adam_Foster_Collins »

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2006, 05:54:02 PM »
One question in analyzing the savings is determining whether you are letting your fairways go "dormant" in response to weather conditions (ie drought) or as part of a new maintenance plan.  If you're responding to weather, then your savings will be minimal, since you'll only be able to reduce staff and chemicals IF the weather permits.  If you're changing the maintenance schedule to use less water and chemicals, then you can probably estimate the savings pretty precisely with a good budget.  The savings will depend on where you're starting from.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2006, 08:07:18 PM »
Letting bermuda grass fairways go dormant, as they are currently, the playing surface is much firmer, with a ball roll of 25 yards or more. The surface is tight and the ball sits up perfect. We save alot of money on seed and fertilizer, water and headaches by not overseeding. We did not overseed fairway last season, and with the terrible transition that most courses int he Southeast experienced, our fairwayrs were great because there isn't have anything ryegrass conpetition.
  After playing Sea Island yesterday, I do have to say hitting on a ryegrass fairway looks better and is very appealing to the eye, but I had mud on my ball all day and didn't get any roll. Our members love the ball roll that they get and the tight surface that they are hitting off. We still mow them once a week and fill divots. A negative to not overseeding is that some of our fairways have alot of divots in them by mid winter. Great surface to play off and many of the top courses in my area that were still overseeding 2 years ago, are no longer overseeding.....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Adam_F_Collins

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2006, 08:50:30 PM »
I'm thinking about the Halifax area. We have annual rainfall of 53.3 inches (31.2 during the golf season) and an average high temperature of 55.4 over the entire season. Average highs in the summer are in the 70's.

Given this type of climate, what kind of low-water, low-chemical/fertilizer programs are feasable?

Grant Davey

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2006, 09:42:57 AM »
Adam,
The type of turf you consider would depend greatly on your climate as you mentioned and your soils. If your desire is to have that traditional thin blade low-maintenance turf then you would have to look for those traits in your grass selection and also how well it will suit your site. If it was me I would look at Fescues for what you desire. If the soils are heavy I would consider Colonel Bents. You could always mix the two but given the consistency of the month to month rainfall the Colonel would out compete the Fescue. Once established both species have low maintenance requirements compared with other cool season turfs. As far as maintenance programs, well that starts with the soil and what you deem as acceptable Turf.
Grant

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2006, 10:14:51 PM »
In Arizona (Phoenix) an 18-hole course might save $150,000 if they only overseeded tees and green areas. It might be more or less depending on the amount of play they would not have to turn away due to closing the course.

At Legend Trail (2,800 ft.) we recommended cool season grasses wall-to-wall, but the original developed insisted on Bermudagrass. What a mistake! It would have been the only Scottsdale area course which did not have to overseed. Imagine 3 weeks of high season green fees — 150 golofers/day x $150 x 24 days = $540,000/season!!!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 10:15:50 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Adam_F_Collins

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2006, 11:18:14 PM »
I would guess that not a lot of overseeding goes on up here with the shorter season (but what do I know?).

I imagine that in most cases here, their is enough rain to keep things pretty green until the end of June, then it dries out. Now, I wonder how little water can be used on the the fairways during that period - in average conditions, without abnormally high temperatures...

How delicate is the balance between brown and firm and... well... dead?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2006, 06:39:30 AM »
Jeepers Adam, 53 inches of rain a year!  Because the temps. are similar I was going to try and draw a comparison between N.S. and England, but England only gets half that amount of rain.  Thank God!  I will be thinking of you the next time it gets soggy round these parts.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2006, 06:56:44 AM »
"How delicate is the balance between brown and firm and... well... dead?"

Adam:

That's what really good supers are there to determine. What you should do up there is what I've done and continue to do down here---eg get to know the supers at the courses around you and ask them what they think of these things since the answers are so dependent on differing regions, specific soil conditions on differing courses anyway. I think you'll find, as I have, that there's fairly similiar thinking generally but when one gets into specifics most of these supers have their own ideas, wrinkles, methods etc. I also think the best way for people like us to come at this subject is from the perspective of playability first. Explain and define particular playabilities very specifically and then ask them what it takes to produce them on their courses---if possible (because there're so many variables involved course to course).  ;)

Adam_F_Collins

Re:If you let fairways go dormant, what do you save?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2006, 09:16:48 PM »
Well, the thing is TomP, that I'm not so intersted in playing characteristics with this thread as I am in exploring the possibilities of cost-savings. How much water can be saved? How much fertilizer can we avoid using? How much grass seed can be saved? How much labor cost can be saved? If these savings can be made and that equals 'firm and fast' condition, then that's a stronger case for the establishment of those conditions than it is to claim that it is 'golf as it was meant to be played'...

I'm trying to formulate the ideal business model for this region. What model would work best, and what maintenance approach will that require?

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