Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects

[Tony_Chapman]

My favorite Arthur Hills I have played (out of 4 or 5) is the 15th at Chaska Town Course.  Here is a thread I started on it:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17262;start=msg304218#msg304218

Jason - That's my second favorite hole out there. In Mark's original thread, I picked the third hole at CTC in my "very limited" eclectic 18. I like the short par-4 and the risk and reward of challenging the green and having to miss the big tree.

I'll be interested to see what the Amateur's shoot out there in qualifying this summer.

[Big Pete]

Tom
I note in you original comments your nomination of certain holes at Pacific and Barnbougle Dunes , and would love to hear why you nominated those particular holes above others . With my connection to barnbougle I have played the course as much as nearly anyone , and have many holes I look forward to playing as the round progresses including the 2 wonderful holes you have put forward , but also including 7 , 9 , 12 , 15 & probably 3 as personal favourites. Is there a particular reason you have elevated 4 and 13 above the others - perhaps because they are maybe a little more unique in the world of golf?
On another thread I noted Mark F had some reservations about the merits of hole 2 and can advise that it is a hole that grows in merit with experience - the green complex is a class act , and one I now look forward to playing - surely this is the ultimate test?
i.e. that the golfer comes to respect and enjoy a hole more with playing?I think it was Mike Keiser who dubbed hole 2 an "architects hole" because it was a transition between key dunesland terrain?
IMO this is a very good golf hole and I salute the design team because I think it works very well - I would place hole 3 at Pacific in the same category - a transition between dunesland - and am intrigued that you would nominate such above holes that blow me away like 11 , 5 & 14 , although I have only played Pacific 3 times...
I also would like to nominate hole 2 at ST A B , and holes 1  and 14 at Cape K as particularly clever holes  , given the terrain ...
Your comments please

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:  I had pretty much given up on this thread, because it's clear that there is nothing close to a consensus forming about what are the best holes by any modern designer.  Several of the holes which have been nominated make me want to puke, but I'm not naming names.

Your assumption about my choices for Barnbougle is correct -- I picked 4 and 13 because they have an element of uniqueness to them.  I have the hardest time picking par-3 holes because most of them are the same, a target surrounded by bunkers, but 13 at Barnbougle is an exception because of its wild green.  Of course there are a bunch of other holes I like a lot, that's why we built them, but for a list like this you have to be extremely picky.

I also agree that Mark Ferguson is blind to dismiss the second at Barnbougle as a "nothing" hole but this is not the thread for that argument.  The third hole at Pacific Dunes had much the same genesis, in the necessity of getting over a flat bit of terrain, but the choice of landing areas and the severity around the green and the great view when you get up there put it in another class.  A couple of the better players I know have nominated it as the best hole there.

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter:  I had pretty much given up on this thread, because it's clear that there is nothing close to a consensus forming about what are the best holes by any modern designer.  Several of the holes which have been nominated make me want to puke, but I'm not naming names.

Tom,

Why are my ears ringing?  

I think it's tough.  I'm not sure there are enough people who have played enough courses by enough modern designers to settle on any consensus choices.  

For instance, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel comfortable naming Dye's best hole when I haven't played The Golf Club.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel comfortable with you having not played Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle, etc.

With Fazio, not having played Shadow Creek I'd be guessing.

Etc.

[Jim Franklin]

Here is my list:

1. Sanctuary  par 5  Jim Engh
2. Pete Dye GC par 4 Pete Dye
3. Pac Dunes par 5 Tom Doak
4. Spyglass  par 4 RTJ
5. Kingsley  par 3 Mike DeVries
6. Quarry  par 4 Jeff Brauer
7. Cascata par 3 Rees Jones
8. Wolf Run par 4 Steve Smyers
9. Kinloch  par 5 Lester George
10. Friar's Head par 3 C&C
11. Arcadia Bluffs par 5 Rick Smith
12. Muirfield Village par 3 Jack Nicklaus
13. Doonbeg par 5 Greg Norman
14. Bandon Dunes par 4 David Kidd
15. Shadow Creek par 4 Tom Fazio
16. Hawk's Ridge par 3 Bob Cupp
17. Double Eagle par 4 Tom Weiskopf
18. Caledonia par 4 Mike Strantz

Thoughts?

[Mike Benham]

... I just like the tee shot and the central bunker... green is pretty cool also.

Perhaps it is because I don't like being in that bunker

[John Kirk]

Peter:  I had pretty much given up on this thread, because it's clear that there is nothing close to a consensus forming about what are the best holes by any modern designer.

You can draw a couple different conclusions here.

1.  It takes decades to sort out and identify the best golf holes.  I wonder if architecture buffs 50-60 years ago would agree with our collective consensus about great holes from the Golden Age of design.

2.  The number of well designed holes built today is so great that consensus is impossible.  In my opinion, that's the answer.

After further thought, drop #14 from Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow from consideration, and instead I'll nominate #9, a 460 yard par 4 with two bunkers in the middle of the fairway.  It also features a Pinehurst #2 style green, though not nearly as severe.  Not the most beautiful hole, but the hazard placement works great.

Oh wait, this thread is dead.

Signed,

Last Word Guy
   

[John Kirk]

Oh, and I thought Jim Franklin's list is a fine attempt.

[Garland Bayley]

...Several of the holes which have been nominated make me want to puke, but I'm not naming names.
...

Hey Tom,
If you want to say holes I nominated make you want to puke, go ahead. How else am I to learn? If people on this forum can't take honest criticism, then they should get off it and go join the LPGA comment board.
 

[Jay Flemma]

Attaboy sweeney, way to get silva in there...

I'll throw out 17 at red tail, 1 at red tail, 4 at Black rock (OMG what a HOLE!!!  That hole is worth a fit of hysteria..as Mackenzie liked to say...)

For strantz, I'll do 1 and 2 at RNK, 5 at RNK, 1, 13, 14, 16 and 18 at The Road

For engh - 10 and 18 at Pradera, 12 at Fossil, 14, 15 and 18 at Red Hawk.

[Jim Franklin]

I agree with John as it takes decades to weed out each architects best holes.

There are so many good holes out there that this exercise is tough. I thought long and hard about my list and like it, but I am sure I have missed some worthy architects.

I really like #1 at Sand Hills (better than my choice), but I REALLY liked #10 at Friars Head so I had to axe Sand Hills. #1 at Sanctuary is a pretty cool starting hole with that elevation though.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:  I'll pick out one hole just to show you how much flak it causes, and why I don't pick out more.

Jay:  The first hole at Royal New Kent???  You've got to be kidding!

[Jim Franklin]

Tom: Why would that cause flak? If #1 at RNK is Strantz' best hole, I am a monkey's uncle. I agree with you.

Pick out some more that don't make sense. I am sure you don't agree with all 18 I picked.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yeah, tough to see this one as Strantz's best hole.

[ForkaB]

Yeah, tough to see this one as Strantz's best hole.

OK, Mike

Where's the hole!

[Garland Bayley]

...
Where's the hole!

Rich,
I think it must be hidden in that deep shadow in the depression on the right. That's what makes the hole great. What a deception!!! Everyone thinks it has to be off the end of the fairway and hits it there!  
That is of course assuming the hole plays to the bottom of the picture.

[Bill Gayne]

Below the bottom of the picture is the tee. The green is top left beyond the boundary of the photo. It's a marginal opening hole in the sense that it's fairly simple off the tee to hit it to the bottom of the hill and then have a short iron or wedge in. The problem is that the green is blind with a false front. So the first time you play the hole it gets you. Some guys get greedy and try to cut-off the dogleg. I like the second hole a lot more.

[Jay Flemma]

Dear Tom:

Absolutely the 1st at RNK!  Why?  The best and most severe false front green I have ever seen;)  I love it.

Where's the hole? Thats the idea!  You stand on the first tee and all you see is heaving mounds and a sliver of fairway off in the distance angling off from right to left.

...totally follows Mack's line of charm concept.  You can cut the corner, but heavy risk!  Plus the hazard in the way between tee box and green is really interesting.  On the approach, you can bunp and run OR hit a lofted shot.  Serious peril around this green.  Short right is DEAD as the bunker is deep and you'll have  too far and uphill a shot to get close often.  Over faces a delicate chip down the hill.  Left is no good with severe mounding.

OK, OK, it is certainly not his best, but it would be a good pick for a "one hole from each architect as interesting.  there's a little architorture in there, but God loves wonderous variety.

[Garland Bayley]

We're not convinced Jay. According to Bill, simple drive and then wedge in. That's not a line of charm, that's Vijay (the Viper) and Tiger golf.  

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I think that some of us can't participate because there is just too much work built recently, and we haven't seen enough for almost every architect. A long while back we had a match play between the best colection from a series of architects. Ran did Raynor, I think you did Dye, I definately did Thompson - it's much easier when you can stick to what you think you've seen enough of.

Well I can give you Thompson's best and Doug Carrick's because I've seen just about everything possible.

18 holes from 18 moderns is impossible for me. Why it works for the "dead" guys, is that years of filtering by others focuses us on what we should see and compare. Most of this work has not had enough vistors to let us know what really does stand the test of time. It's too new and still have a hype surrounding that needs to disappear.

Doug's is the 6th at Greywolf mentioned by Mike Nuzzo, and I think it's worthy of the list.

[Andy Doyle]

What about Robert Trent Jones?

#1 at Stone Mountain - Stonemont

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[Jay Flemma]

Bill and Garland:

I dont know how far you can hit a drive, but if you can hit a drive and wedge to that green, then it outta be you guys david feherty is throwing a banana too in that cobra commercial!

Seriously, for the mere mortals of us, that'd be over a 300 yd drive...absolutely straight...with a little good luck to boot, those fairways can roll the ball to some interesting places.

If you wanna disagree, its all good, but its still one I like...but your point is valid...my taste is a little different once in a blue moon...

Crystal Downs AND pradera?  Sure...I can like them both;)

[Bill Gayne]

Jay,

In full disclosure I've never played the hole from the back (invicta) markers. I've played it from the two middle sets. It's 251 or 234 to the corner of the dogleg from the middle markers and 134 in. The drive is a down hill drop in elevation of probably 25-30 feet. So a drive of 250 with a 25-30 foot drop in elevation is not extreme. From the back markers its 277 to the corner leaving 134 in. For me 134 is a short iron. (The difficult part is hitting the ball straight.)

I think the opening shot is a good one. It's the second shot into a blind green with a huge false front. And I never ever want to be in the right green side bunker again.

[mark chalfant]

1   Seville 518   Arthur Hills
2   Desert Forest 429  Red Lawrence
3   Morgan Hill  239  Kelly Moran
4   University  Ridge 446   RTJ II
5   Bedminster 488  Tom Fazio  
6   Stonewall  143 Doak  Brian Schneider
7   Pradera  594  Jim Engh
8   Silver Leaf  569  Tom  Weiskopf
9   Friars Head  387  Coore  Crenshaw

10  NCR 535  Dick Wilson
11  Harvester 385  Keith Foster
12  Firethorn 413  Pete  Dye
13  Rochelle Ranch 597 Ken Kavanaugh
14  Biderman 443  Joe Lee
15  Boston 554   Gil Hanse
16  Wolf Run 132  Steve Smyers
17  French Creek 237  Bill Kittleman
18  Diamond Springs 375  Mike DeVries

[Jay Flemma]

Bill...the severe peril on the second shot is exacly why I like that hole.  Even with a wedge in your hands (fat chance for me...least I ever had in was 8...and I punched 7 to be safe...), getting it close is tough and the severe false front makes you putt like your hitting an easter egg instead of a ball...a real knee knocker...