Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects

[Tom_Doak]

I am starting to think what I used to think -- that there is very little consensus on modern architecture at all!

[redanman]

 Anything but the expected, a list, not the list, getting in 18 different archies 3 somewhat goofy 5's not necessarily ones easy to reach (even if shortish) and mostly long, strong 3’s and a strong finish for the modern game. Unfortunately, I've not played any of Mike DeVries' work, so I had to guess on his inclusion.


1  400    4 Galloway(Fazio)
2  162    3 Kingsley (DeVries)
3  517    5 La Quinta Mountain (Dye)
4  415    4 White Manor (Weed)
5  336    4 Old Sandwich (C & C)
6  467    4 Bear Creek (Palmer)
7    411  4 Tobacco Road (Strantz)
8    218  3 Kaluhyat (RTJ, Jr.)
9    500  5 Carnegie Abbey (Steele)

3426    par 36

10  427 4 Olde Kinderhook (Rees Jones)
11  496 4 Four Streams (Smyers)
12  238 3 Bandon Dunes (Kidd)
13  348 4 Shelter Harbor (Hurdzan & Fry)
14  336 4 Falls at LLV (Weiskopf)
15  525 5 Morgan Hill (KB Moran)
16  244 3 Desert Highlands (Nicklaus)
17  435 4 Frog Hollow (Horne & Liddicoat)
18  451 4 Stonewall (Doak)

3500  par 35

6926    par 71

[Andy Troeger]

Some possibilities from my fairly limited experience...

Pete Dye
BWR River: 1, 5, 9, 11, 16
Whistling Straits: 7, 8
Crooked Stick: 6, 13
Meadow Valleys: 12, 14
Also...not played but worthy: Sawgrass #11, H. Town #17, 18

RTJ
Point O'Woods: #8, 9, 16

Engh
Tullymore #10, 14, 18

Smith/Henderson
Arcadia Bluffs #11, 12, 13

Liddy
Sultan's Run #12, 18
Rock Hollow #6, 8, 14

[redanman]

I am starting to think what I used to think -- that there is very little consensus on modern architecture at all!

Methinks exposure is a factor.

[Sean Leary]

2 or 4 at Spyglass for RTJ

[A_Clay_Man]

Ken Dye;
#5 at Pinon (Original 14th)
The Muirfield hole # 23(?) Paa-Ko-Ridge

Baxter Spann;
#13 Riverview
#10, 4 7 14 & 17 Black Mesa
8 out of nine at the Great 28

Forrest Richardson;
#9 12 & 17 The Hideout

Rick Phelps;
#5 & 6 at Devil's Thumb
# 11 Antler Creek

Dave Axeland;
#8 & 13 Bayside

Dave w/ Dan Proctor;
#8,9 11 & 16 Wild Horse

Scott Miller;
#8 & 9(?) We ko pa

Jim Engh;
#3 Redlands Mesa
#1 & 18 Lakota Canyon

Jeff Brauer;
#7 (?) & 16 Cowboys

Mike Nuzzo;
#2 The Aztec Club (aka Lost Souls)  

Rees;
#15 Quintero

Pete Dye;
River Course BWR #'s 3 5 8 9 & 16
Valley Nine #'s 3 4 5 6 7 & 9
Sawgrass #11 16 & 17
La Quinta
Dunes #4
Mtn. # 15 (?)

Fazio;
Victoria Nat'l #3 and 16
The Preserve #3
Shadow Creek #16
World Woods # 4

Doak;
# 2 3 4 7 8 and all the rest at Ballyneal
 

[Tom Dunne]

Tom Doak: I definitely defer to your judgment on Kingsbarns--I've only played it once and was probably too blown away by the sheer beauty of the place that my critical faculties (such as they are) weren't fully functional.

Of the holes you mentioned at Kingsbarns, I remember 15 and 17 the most vividly. On 15, I would have guessed many  would lump it in with a million other over-the-water par-3s (though it is prettier than most, it must be said). The green does have a pretty good right to left slope, though, if memory serves.

[Billsteele]

For Nicklaus, I would look at #14 at Muirfield Village.

[Jason Topp]

What about Greg Norman? 1 at Doonbeg?

Jeff Brauer - I like the 6th at the Quarry


Tom Doak - I've only played one course but I would pick the 7th at Barnbougle

Rees Jones - 6 Hazeltine

Bobby Weed - 11th at Stoneridge - short par five with wicked green and a barn in play off the tee.  I wish I had a picture of this hole because I really like it.

Tom Fazio - the best for me is 18 at Ventana Canyon Mountain course

Tom Weiskopf/Morrish - the hole at Troon North with the Rock in the middle of the fairway

Jack Nicklaus - I've played Bearpath, Desert Highlands, La Paloma and Reynolds Plantation and cannot think of a single hole that is a threat.

The guy who designed the Classic at Maddens #1



Picture shows the 2nd after an aggressive drive.  Reachable par five with a huge fairway.  Easy but interesting to reach in 3 (because landing area is tight for a layup at a flat lie at the bottem of the hill), very aggressive drive and risky shot to reach in 2.  Great green.

[John Kirk]

First, we'll play "I agree Tom":

I like #4 at Kingsley.

I also agree that although Stone Eagle is a wonderful course, individual holes don't stand out as great.  Very consistent.  If pressed, I would pick #9 or #18, both par 4s.

I've played three Coore/Crenshaw courses.  I like #1 and #13 at Sand Hills, #7 and #13 at Bandon Trails, and thought #4 at Hidden Creek was memorable.

Let's add Lester George and holes #10 and #12 from Kinloch, though other holes on the course have received far more attention.

Bob Cupp and John Fought designed Pumpkin Ridge.  My favorites are #2, #5, and #8 on Ghost Creek, and #14 on Witch Hollow.

Bandon Dunes (Kidd), #14

[cary lichtenstein]

Pretty amazing that all you guys remember all these holes...I need multipule plays to do that

[Peter_Herreid]

John K--

Inspired choice at Bandon Dunes!  Great minds think alike...  After numerous plays down there, #14 at BD is certainly one that can be played so many different ways, depending not just on one's ball flight/ability/inability, but also the wind direction/fog, etc...

I start thinking about that hole well before the 13th green!  I love that greensite, too...

My favorite hole at BD...

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

I'm embarrassed to say that on some of these courses, I can't remember every hole anymore.  (So much for the renowned photographic memory!)  However, I figure that if I can't remember the hole in question, it probably does not qualify for a list of the 18 best holes in golf.

Jason:

I thought the great hole at Doonbeg was indisputably the par-5 13th.  There are some very good holes at National (Moonah) but nothing I liked better than that.

From an architect whom no one has mentioned yet:

The Dunes (Mich.) 8 - Dick Nugent

[Mark Brown]

Long Cove  3,7,11,15
Chechessee Creek  12,13
Secession 14
Harbour Town 9, 17
Black Diamond - Quarry  16
Pete Dye GC 7 (the foggy par 3)
Cuscowilla 5
Old Memorial 15(?) par 5 - tiny green
Belfair - West  12 (par 5), 17

[Mike Nuzzo]

Adam,
Thank you...
I like #2 also.

Baxter Spann - #16 - par 5 Black Mesa - alternate #14 short par 4

If choosing a Palmer hole - I'd go with one from the Bluffs on Thompson Creek

Strantz - #1 Royal New Kent or #1 Tobacco Road

Fazio - #17 Sand Ridge - par 3 or #4 World Woods or one from Dallas National

Doak - #7 or #12 Texas Tech    I have a hard time separating the ones at Pacific - #13 & #6

C&C - Cuscowilla #5 or Friars' #15

Todd E - #3 Barona

Nicklaus - Whispering Pines - par 4 across the lake

Hanse - Rustic #13

Whitman - Blackhawk #7

[redanman]

For Nicklaus, I would look at #14 at Muirfield Village.

I thought of using that one for Desmond Muirhead -reptty early in the oeuvre.

[Tony_Chapman]

Surely, we could find a Kidd hole at Bandon Dunes.

Tom will need one hole on this list for sure. Tom, I'd be interested to hear your "favorite"; or at least a 3, 4 and 5.

I'd think you'd have to get a Fazio on there somewhere, and a Strantz (13 at Tobacco Road for me).

After that, you could go a million different places. There is no way this board would agree on just "one" C and C hole. Or Gil Hanse for that matter. Surely something at Rustic Canyon would get somewhere close to a million votes.

I'm shocked that Adam didn't include #15 Wild Horse on his list. One of the great short par-4's I have played anywhere.

Pete Dye has built a few good courses in the modern era and how would you pick from the Ocean Course, Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run and The Golf Club??

I would also hope and Jeff Brauer (possibly one of his Minnesota holes?) and Jim Engh could be included on this list somewhere.

I haven't played enough of these great course to have that much impact.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Because I haven't seen enough modern work...

1   Tobacco Road   Mike Strantz   5
2   The Aztec Club   Mike Nuzzo   5
3   Barona Creek   Todd Eckenrode   3
4   Bandon Dunes   David Kidd   4
5   Cuscowilla   Bill Core   4
6   Grey Wolf   Doug Carrick   3
7   Black Hawk   Rod Whitman   5
8   Casa de Campo   Pete Dye   4
9   Twisted Dunes   Archie Struthers   5
10   Paa-Ko Ridge   Ken Dye   4
11   Mira Vista   Tom Weiskopf   4
12   Texas Tech   Tom Doak   4
13   Rustic Canyon   Gil Hanse   5
14   Whispering Pines   Jack Nicklaus   4
15   Pine Dunes   Jay Morrish   4
16   Black Mesa   Baxter Spann   5
17   Sand Ridge   Tom Fazio   3
18   Bluffs on Thompson Creek   Arnold Palmer   4

Keith Foster's 12th at Cypresswood is excellent

Do Sutton Bay or Kinloch have a stalwart?

[SPDB]

Fazio:

18 at Johns Island.

[John Kirk]

Do Sutton Bay or Kinloch have a stalwart?

Yes.  #2.  Just kidding.

Earlier in the thread I picked #10 and #12 as good representatives at Kinloch.

I bet we could come up with an 18 hole course designed entirely from GCA members.

[Michael Dugger]

1st Friar's Head C&C
2nd Pac Dunes Doak
3rd Spyglass RTJones Sr.
4th Strantz
5th Fazio
6th Spann
7th Smyers
8th Player (Fancourt Links?)
9th Weed

10th Nicklaus
11th RTJones Jr.
12th Rees Jones
13th Dick Wilson
14th Pete Dye
15th French Creek Hanse
16th Bandon Dunes  Kidd
17th Forest Highlands Weiskopf/Morrish
18th Pumpkin Ridge Witch Hollow Cupp/Fought

[Jim Franklin]

How about #18 at Caledonia for Strantz?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'm disappointed that so far no one has chosen from the Hurdzan/Fry or Arthur Hills portfolio.

[Grant Davey]

Some Pete Dye nominations from my neck of the woods:

Medow Valleys: 4,6  
River: 1,3,11
Straits: 3,8,10,13
Irish: 1

Grant

[Dan Boerger]

Steve -

A Hurdzan/Fry course I really enjoy is Fieldstone in Delaware.

- Dan

[Tags:]

Tags: