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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« on: January 18, 2006, 04:39:44 PM »
Following on from Ian's thread and from Mark Rowlinson's.

I prefer not to mix modern architecture with old in this format.  So we will need to come up with 20-30 modern designers, nominate some of the best holes designed by each, and then form a list.

For my own contribution, I would nominate one of the following:

High Pointe 13 - 440 yards
Stonewall Old 6 - 446 yards
Pacific Dunes 3 - 499 yards
Pacific Dunes 6 - 316 yards
Barnbougle Dunes 4 - 299 yards
Barnbougle Dunes 13 - 201 yards

I won't count anything from Sebonack or Ballyneal yet.

Next up:  the best Tom Fazio holes.  Off the top of my head, I'd pick Shadow Creek 15 or 18.  We've got to have a waterfall somewhere!


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2006, 04:42:48 PM »
15th (?) at W Woods PB, the short par 4
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2006, 04:44:17 PM »
World Woods Pine Barrens 15
Aldarra  8

John Kavanaugh

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2006, 04:48:31 PM »
Ron Whitten picked the 15th at Victoria National as one of the top modern holes in the country in his interview found on this site.  Ran likes #2....I like #3.

redanman

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2006, 04:50:50 PM »
I was thinking of an all ultra-modern course, too but for now I'll contribute

Gil Hanse

Applebrook 2(4), 3(4)
Inniscrone 15(5)
French Creek 2(4), 15(4)
Boston  5(4), 6(3)
Tallgrass 16(3)
Rustic haven't played

Kelly Blake Moran
Morgan Hill #8(4), 15(5)

Fazio
#1(4) Galloway
No Shadow Creek hole
Victoria National #16 (3) (back tee)

David Horn and Allen Liddicoat
Frog Hollow #2(5) and #17(4)

Smyers
Four Streams 6?(4), 11(4)
Royce Brook West #4(4)

Rees Jones
Ocean Forest #16(4) or 17(3)

Robert T. Jones, Jr. Kaluhyat #8 (3)

Dye
La Quinta Mountain #4(5)

Add to Doak
Apache #10(4)

Donald Steel
Carnegie Abbey #9(5)

C & C
Easthampton #11(4)
TSN #2 (5), 12(4)
Old Sandwich 5 (4)

Weed
White Manor #4 (4),
Glen Mills #4(5), 13 (4)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 05:34:40 PM by redanmanŽ aka BillV »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2006, 04:59:35 PM »
Damn, Bill beat me to Gil! I haven't seen much, but I was going to nominate Applebrook 2-3, particularly as a melded combo, and Inniscrone's par 5 15th.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2006, 05:11:50 PM »
I'll add a couple of my favorite Strantz holes:
- #11, Caledonia
- #4, True Blue
- #12, Tot Hill Farm
- #6, Tobacco Road
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2006, 05:12:42 PM »
Ron Whitten's choice.......#15 at Victoria National.



Ran's choice.........#2 at Victoria National.


Mike_Sweeney

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2006, 05:16:00 PM »
For a long Fazio Par 3, I would nominate the 17th @ Hudson National at 249 downhill yards:


Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2006, 05:17:58 PM »
Just to squeeze in a little Irish flavour......#15 at Enniscrone.


Tom Huckaby

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2006, 05:19:47 PM »
OK, who's going to pick just one Coore and Crenshaw hole?  They'd have to have dozens of worthy candidates.  Just off the top of my head - not having been to Friar's Head - I'd list:

any hole at Sand Hills
14, 17, 18 Kapalua
1, 5 Cuscowilla
several at Bandon Trails...

That's gonna be tough.  Best to do all of the rest, then fill in the gap with one of theirs.  It's a very safe bet whatever number you need, they'll have a great version.

The same could be said for Doak, btw.  But he gave his choices.

TH

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2006, 05:22:18 PM »
For RTJ Sr... (even though I know many of you don't like his work too much)

- #10, Tanglewood Park
- #9, Duke (I don't know how much belongs to Sr., or Rees)

RTJ Jr...

- #10, Sugarloaf (ME)
- #11, Sugarloaf (ME)

Nicklaus...

- #17, Pawleys Plantation (a sentimental choice)

Dick Wilson...

- #18, Blue Monster (Doral)

I'll think about possible others
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Robert_Walker

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2006, 05:29:04 PM »
four and eleven at Friar's Head

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2006, 05:31:34 PM »
It is a copy, but Brian Silva should get some props for doing Black Creek, this is #17:


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2006, 05:34:33 PM »
several good candidates at Kingsley:  2, 9, etc
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2006, 05:35:46 PM »
Well, on behalf of Mike DeVries, since he is out west skiing:

#1 Greywalls

#2 Kingsley

#5 Greywalls

#13 Kingsley

#14 Mines GC

#15 Mines GC

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2006, 05:52:53 PM »
I'll second Kapalua Plantation, 17 or 18.

And toss into the pot Kingsbarns #12, 566 yds, par 5. (Phillips/Parsinen)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2006, 05:58:02 PM »
Pete Dye?

14, 17 at Whistling Straits
9 The River Course
14 Meadow Valleys
3, 4, 14, at Kiawah (Ocean)

(EDIT) I had some hole numbers wrong when I first posted

« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 07:34:47 PM by Sean Leary »

henrye

Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2006, 06:00:08 PM »
#17 at Kapalua P.

#18 at Cabo Del Sol for Nicklaus

#11 at Sawgrass for Dye

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2006, 06:02:32 PM »
 redanmanŽ aka BillV

I know it is not from the back tee but at least it is one of your selections...........#16 at Victoria National.


Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2006, 06:09:50 PM »
Fazio - #15 Shadow Creek or #2 Victoria National
C&C - #10 Friars Head or #1 Sand Hills or #5 Old Sandwich

Who is keeping track?
Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2006, 06:20:13 PM »
Wow, I don't agree with a LOT of the holes nominated for other architects as even being among their best work, or even the best holes on that particular course.  Cases in point:

If I was going to pick a hole from Kingsley, I would select holes 4, 6, or 15.  If the first at Greywalls is better, so be it, although I have a favorite at that position.

If I was going to pick from Kingsbarns, it wouldn't be 12 ... there's a lot of coastline, but it's a straightforward hole with a ridiculously deep green and a silly shaped sod wall bunker.  Some people pick 6, too, but blind water behind the green just doesn't do it for me.  There are a lot of great holes there ... I would go for 4, 7, 15, or 17.

15 would be my favorite at Victoria National, though I'm not sure it's better than 15 at Shadow Creek ... both are very good.  I thought that 15th at World Woods was overrated, I'd much more likely vote for the par-5 4th there.  But maybe we're just giving Tom Fazio #15.

17 at Cabo del Sol over 18, for sure.  Is that really Jack's best hole?

For Bill Coore, 7 or 9 or 10 at Friars Head; 1 or 4 or 7 or 14 or 16 at Sand Hills, all of them better than 17 or 18 in my view.  But it seems easy to pick the starter at Sand Hills.  (By the way, Huckaby, your post takes the butt-boy cake, even if there is some truth to it.)

Pete Dye could fill in just about anywhere we need him, too, but I'm not that enamored with any of the holes nominated for him so far.  Any of the par-3's from Teeth of the Dog could make it; 13 at The Golf Club is a seminal example of Pete's work; he once picked the 13th at Crooked Stick as his own favorite, although he told me he'd just happened to play it the morning GOLF Magazine called to ask him!

Keep them coming, even though I may keep disagreeing.  What about Robert Trent Jones?  What about George Fazio [9th at Jupiter Hills, perhaps]?  I'd take David Kidd's 4th at Bandon Dunes if there's nothing better at Nanea.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2006, 06:23:57 PM »
Rees Jones
#11 Atlantic-great short par 3,particularly in prevailing wind-bonus high point yields great vista accross course.
                #4 The Bridge-strategic risk reward par 4,unique maintained sloping feature right of green plays mind games-awesome view
           
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2006, 06:24:02 PM »
#2 at the Pete Dye Club is my choice.
Mr Hurricane

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak's test: 1-18, 18 different modern architects
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2006, 06:27:52 PM »
Pete Dye- #5,#14, and about 10 other holes at Long Cove
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey