[Paul Payne]

I'm with Tuck 'n Huck on this.

I think it could be done and could possibly a great course. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't. I do think someone made the point earlier that it would have to be very well done to really be commercailly viable. That is mort certainly true.

Possibly incorporate this into a desert design, desert waste would not necessarily qualify as a bunker would it?

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks Mr. Huckaby, I was trying to write something similar for the last 10 minutes. You couldn't have put it better.

Dave - cool - strike one up for the good guys. BTW, though I do appreciate the etiquette, heck even my Dad doesn't go as Mr. Huckaby.  Tom is fine, or Hey You, or anything.  Paul is very much on the right track.

 

I am more and more intrigued by this bunkerless course idea the more I think about it... the mind reels at what they'd do to add interest, particularly by the greens... I'm just thinking one could have some DAMN good greens and greensites if one had to do this bunkerless exercise.

This isn't to say it ought to be the PREFERRED way to do golf courses - far from it - bunkers are part of the very nature and soul of golf.  But this kind of out of the box thinking, for a unique course here ore there, sure is great by me...

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - GREAT call re a course near desert waste... no that's not bunker per se, as it's not prepared area... you could incorporate the waste areas in as playable, from the sides, go over them etc....

That's one way this could work out very well.

I'm thinking about parkland instances, though - think about what they'd have to do around and on the greens if they weren't allowed any bunkers or waste areas or anything of the sort... to make it interesting they'd have to come up with some really funky stuff, which if done right would be VERY fun to play....

Ok, I'm getting too excited about this.  Down boy.

 

[Brian Noser]

Paul I think that the desert would defeat the purpose of this. I would do one like some one said earlier in the plains not the sand hills obviously. like some where in Tennesse or Missouri   where there is no sand around. I think it could be great fun to play them the green sites would need to be amazing though.

Of course the conditions would not matter cause this course would be so cutting edge architectually it could be a dog track and peoplke would come out of the wood work to play it.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I think it can be done.  there certainly are many interesting ways to incorporate natural features in place of bunkers, in addition to slopes, ridges, valleys clothed in fairway, and well contoured greens.  you do not design for what you think the golfers want.  If you do that then you might as well do something else.  Easy to say I know and hard to hold the line there but I think it is a vital point in design.   You give them what you believe in and hope they come around to appreciate it.  I think Tucker is headed in that direction.  Do something you believe in put it out there and then expect the people to come to appreciate it.

[Tucker Davis]

Yes,   thank you!

It would call for great design work.  But isnt that what golf architects do.  I feel that a lot of times architects use bunkers as the last resort.  They may not know what to do, so they throw in a bunker.  Lets do this in Memphis.  We need it.  Or maybe down in the cotton in Tunica.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Hell Tucker we need this in San Jose, CA, where the all rage is overdone, over-expensive, eye-candy golf.

And darn well said, Kelly.  Hook 'em horns, btw.  Gotta say I appreciated and admired your avoidance of taunting and gloating over us defeated Trojans - and we surely deserved such.  You Texas people are all class.  I mean that very, very sincerely.  

Brian - you're probably right that incorporating desert areas would defeat the overall purpose, but it sure is one compromise way this could be done, and it too would be interesting.  And don't think I for one didn't catch the drift of your last line, also.

[Mike Benham]

Land is too valuable to just 'experiment' with a course.

Think about this statement for a second.  Did Pete Dye experiment with TPC?  Was the land valuable?

The land will always be there, whether a course succeeds or not.  If it doesn't, it becomes a housing tract or industrial park.  The Bay Area has many examples ...

[Tony_Chapman]

Huck - Next time you come to town, we'll have a round at Pioneers Golf Course in Lincoln. It was designed in 1914 (I think) by William Tucker and Jeff Brauer came in and helped them redo the green complexes about 10 years ago.

No bunkers. Very fun course, I'd rank it just behind Jeff's Highlands as far as Lincoln public courses go. It's got some neat terrain and a mulititude of fun quandries around the greens. Kick boards, greens right next to big falloffs, running shots, etc.

I think it funny that Jordan is screaming about HAVING to have bunkers. Aren't the pros always wanting there ball to go in these so-called hazards.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tony - my man, you know a lot of cool, unsung golf courses.  Pioneers intrigues the hell out of me.  Fantastic.

 

[Dave Bourgeois]

Boy I can see some crazy green sites with awesome swales.... Bouncing the ball into places off of some wild land form....  Could be tons O' fun.

[ForkaB]

Painswick!

(maybe somebody can resurrect Paul Turner's initial thread for the newbies)

[Tom Huckaby]

Painswick has no bunkers?

COOL!

The legend grows.

BTW Sean, don't beat yourself up too bad - to make myself feel better that I missed a great event there and likely never will see this GCA favorite, I asked my cousin (lives in N. Ireland, gets to that area where Painswick is sort of often as he has some friends who live fairly near) about it and he damn near choked laughing.  Let's just say that his take was similar to what you say here, and he called it a little mickey-mouse joke course.  So although it is revered in here, well... chalk that up to the weird preferences of this place more than it actually being a great golf course.

Understand though I remain pained (pun intended) that I'll never see it personally.  God it sounds like fun to me.

TH

[Dave Bourgeois]

Sean,

Just to clarify, my previous post was about the potential fun of a new bunkerless course, and must have slid in between your post on Kingston.

However, my interest in Kingston is peaked! I will now google for pictures.

Cheers,
D

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:  I could have sworn Painswick had a single bunker on the last hole, or somewhere.  And I would still vote for Royal Ashdown Forest as the best bunkerless course.

It is surely possible to build an excellent course without bunkers.  However, the idea of a bunkerless course exists for the novelty factor.  Show me a bunkerless course that wouldn't be BETTER if you added a couple of bunkers to it, and then you've got something!

[Andy Doyle]

Of course the design would have to be damn good to make this a success in the long run.

Why is that?  Don't most average golfers hate being in the sand?  I would think this would have mass appeal.

AD

[Tucker Davis]

Tom,

Yes the idea of a bunkerless course exists because it would be a novelty, but it should also be attractive because of the possibility for it to save money!!

[mike_beene]

Wouldn't The Ocean Course be the best.Tenison East only has one or two bunkers.The old west course,now redone,didn't have any.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In addition to RAF, Painswick and Kington I should add Berkhamsted which is a cracker of a course and Piltdown (which I've never played).  One of my favourite bunkerless courses used to be Portpatrick on the Mull of Galloway.  I used to play there as a child on holiday with my father and I went back a few years ago,  Blow me!  They'd built two or three bunkers.  I felt mildly cheated!  It's not a great course but there are plenty of fun holes.  I have a feeling that Rhos-on-Sea in north Wales may be bunkerless these days.  It lies a few feet below sea level and they could never keep the bunkers dry.  

[ForkaB]

Rich:  I could have sworn Painswick had a single bunker on the last hole, or somewhere.  And I would still vote for Royal Ashdown Forest as the best bunkerless course.

It is surely possible to build an excellent course without bunkers.  However, the idea of a bunkerless course exists for the novelty factor.  Show me a bunkerless course that wouldn't be BETTER if you added a couple of bunkers to it, and then you've got something!

Tom (and Sean)

There is a practice bunker at Painswick, well-off the the right of the short 18th, and facing backwards so it would be about impossible to get into, even with a severe shank.  It is there so members know what to do when playing matches against courses that actually have bunkers!

PS--on the Painswick website there is a marverllously poignant tribute to Ted Dix, who most of us who were there will remember as the somewhat eccentric green convenor at the time of Ryder/Buda Cup II, and who passed away last year.  Ted led a very full and uncommon life and the story is worth reading.

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