Pinehurst #8 vs. #4

[Scott_Park]

I'll be playing #4  tomorrow for the first time and would like to hear views on #8 vs. # 4- both are Fazio courses built within a few years of another.  Most of the people that I work say that #4 is their favorite course at the resort.  Is #4 essentially #8 with nicer landscaping?  

Thanks for comments,

Scott

[redanman]

I vote for neither.  #4 used to be good, now it's gimmicky with piles of little bunkers.  To a degree, it was hard to screw up because the routing was so good before.  Now it's Fazio's BEST!!! routing.  Sadly?  He didn't route it.  Ross and Jones have that honor, the "new and improved #4 is jsut cosmetic changes to what was my secnd favorite course there, now permanently scarred.

#8 is just plain awful, terrible routing, holes that have been done before, green complexes to "emulate" #2 - it all doesn't go together.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, just telling the truth.

[Matt MacIver]

I hardly see any resemblence between #4 and #8, although I admit when I played them both (on back-to-back days several years ago) I wasn't looking too hard.  

#4 is my favorite of the eight courses, too.  It is wide open, much more hilly than #2 (aside from 4 & 5 ), with water on two holes and just a great place to take a walk.  

#8, lots of tight tree lined fairways, I could have been anywhere in the country, definitely didn't feel like I was in Pinehurst.  I guess I was expecting 8 (and 7) to be a lot like the first 6...my fault for not knowing what to expect.  

Enjoy #4, and let me know what you think about them both.  

[rocket]

Number 4 is better.  Somedays the greens can play harder than #2.  

[Craig Disher]

Scott,
I hope you've already played #2 and have to decide between #4 and #8 on your off day.

On 10 days, I'd play #4 on 9 of them. The routing is pretty good but as redanman says it closely follows Ross's. I think a lot of it looks very manufactured - e.g. the bomb crater bunkers on #17 - so it doesn't fit well with the rest of the resort. But #8 has the same problem.

[Tim Bert]

I never played the original #4, but I enjoyed it more than #7 and #8 while I was at the resort.  I thought the greens were more similar to the playing style of #2 than those other two courses.  It had a less manufactured feel than #8.  As a point of reference, I enjoyed #7 and #8 as well.  Those two weren't anything for which I would specifically return to the resort to play, but I had a good time on all four of the courses I played while at Pinehurst.

[erichunter]

#8 is just plain awful, terrible routing, holes that have been done before, green complexes to "emulate" #2 - it all doesn't go together.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, just telling the truth.

I understand the criticisms lobbed at #4 but I think there is a lot to like about #8.  If anything the Faz tried to duplicate #2's greens on 4 more than 8.  As for 8's routing, my only quibble is the walk from 16 green over to 17 tee then come straight back up on 18.

I liked the 2nd green, the tee shot on 4, the tree forcing a strategic shot on 6 (although I think this has been ordered down my mgmt), 9 is a challenge.  As for the back, 12 is a short par 4 that can force a delicate approach, 14 is a risk reward tee ball...

I honestly don't know why the course is thought of so negatively on here.

[Evan_Green]

#8 is a pretty, well conditioned and a relatively mild playing resort course. There are no houses on it which is a plus. I'd bet that the majority of resort players who play #8 really enjoy it. However, nothing particularly stands out about the course - it is just a solid, aesthetically pleasing, well conditioned golf course.

#4 is quite a different story. It is a brute, particularly around the greens. In my opinion while the greens on #4 are larger than those on #2, the edges of the greens on #4 are more severe. The greens on #4 are downright intimidating. I didn't particularly care for the pot bunkers and I don't see what they have to do with Donald Ross. It's certainly an interesting experience, however and  deserves to be played once.

If one wanted an alternative to #2 at the Pinehurst Resort, I think many on this site would prefer playing Ross' #1 and #3 which have plenty of charm and better reflect the original feel of Pinehurst (aweful 1970's housing on #3 excluded). Both are downright good golf courses.

Pinehurst #3 would be very fun to play with hickory shafted clubs. I only thought of this after having played the course so I didn't check (I doubt they would have them), but I think them having the option to rent hickories for #3 would be a great move.

However I would rather play Pine Needles or Tobacco Road over any Pinehurst course except, of course, for #2.

[Tim Taylor]

OK, I'll be the contrarian. I liked 'em both but I liked 8 more.

I haven't seen nearly as many courses as Redanman, and haven't played too many Fazios so the "it's all been done before" comments don't apply to me. I kinda liked the greens that were similar to #2. I thought there was a nice mix of long and short holes and I hit pretty much every club in the bag.

Redanman, what do you think are the flaws in #8's routing?

TimT

[Alan Gard]

While I enjoyed both #4 and #8, my personal preference is #4.  Of course, part of that could be because I've played #8 only in afternoons where I played #2 in the morning.  #4 fits in better with the rest of the resort.  Having played #4 only once but #8 twice, I remember about the same number of  holes on each.  #4 had a more consistent identity where #8 was sort of all over the place with one hole having a desert feel and another being played over a swamp.

[redanman]

I  honestly don't know why the course is thought of so negatively on here.

#8
The range and the position of the clubhouse determined the start of the routing and the finish as well.  THE last five holes or so go all over the place.  Just gooogle the aerial and look at it.

#4
THE old course made more contiguous sense, maybe the agronomy needed updating, but they tore it up for the '99 Open to have tent plots and just let the biggest name in the business  leave his mark.  and poorly, too.  

However with all those Fazio ("Greatest Living Architect") courses around, it makes for more and larger "surcharges".

Call me an old fart, he did NOT improve on what was there.

[Scott_Park]

Thanks again for comments.

Yesterday was about as good of a day as you could find - low 70's and sunny.

As far as the course goes,  I thought that is was far better than #8 and were some of Fazios' best greens.  We have had a dry winter in NC and the greens were firm and smooth.  The green contours and their firmness made for very interesting approaches and putting.  

Unfortunately, as you get further from the green, the interest level falls off.  It is a fun driver course in that you can bust it off the tee, but there weren't really any holes that made me question hitting driver.

Scott

[tlavin]

OK, I'll be the contrarian. I liked 'em both but I liked 8 more.

I haven't seen nearly as many courses as Redanman, and haven't played too many Fazios so the "it's all been done before" comments don't apply to me. I kinda liked the greens that were similar to #2. I thought there was a nice mix of long and short holes and I hit pretty much every club in the bag.

Redanman, what do you think are the flaws in #8's routing?

TimT

I agree.  I liked them both a lot.  #4 was a bit more strategic and #8 a bit more scenic, but both were interesting, difficult and fun to play.  Perhaps there were some architectural deficiencies, but my novice eye was not offended.

[CHC1948]

I think #8 is a solid golf course with pretty good variety.  I think #4 has a few positives such as a few unique bunkers and some interesting greens.  However, #4 sticks out like a sore thumb....the "natural areas" are terrible and by terrible I mean Mrytle Beach terrible!!!  The routing would get maybe a 3 or 4 out of ten.  I think the fact that i can't remember certain holes after playing it at least 1/2 a dozen times is not a good sign.  I hope that PCC will someday utilize this property to it's fullest.

CHC

[Tim Taylor]

Yeah, I can remember every hole at 8 and only a few on 4. For what that's worth.

TimT

I think #8 is a solid golf course with pretty good variety.  I think #4 has a few positives such as a few unique bunkers and some interesting greens.  However, #4 sticks out like a sore thumb....the "natural areas" are terrible and by terrible I mean Mrytle Beach terrible!!!  The routing would get maybe a 3 or 4 out of ten.  I think the fact that i can't remember certain holes after playing it at least 1/2 a dozen times is not a good sign.  I hope that PCC will someday utilize this property to it's fullest.

CHC

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