[Voytek Wilczak]

Which one takes the (dubious) prize?

I vote for Jasna Polana.

With its varied, hilly terrain, mature trees, the heart-of-Princeton location, the Johnson mansion - it indeed could've been another Winged Foot or better (maybe even Pine Valley II?).

Instead, it's ho-hum.

What other courses are woulda coulda shoulda?

[McCloskey]

the course that most resembles that comment was one I played for the first time this past year.   The Reserve in Carmel Valley.

Just an incredible property and plenty of it.   The course is OK, but falls well short of what that property could have produced.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Voytek,

I'm not so sure I'd classify the land as great, but, I agree with your assessment of the golf course, it's mediocre at best, and would appear to be an opportunity lost.

[Brad Klein]

Jasna Polana is a disaster but I could not tell from riding it when I played  (was afraid to walk and had to start n the 2nd hole anyway) if the land was any good. Seemed like it had a lot of slope in the middle and was low on the edges, which is never a good formula. I think it's the greatest example of never having to leave the clubhouse.

This is a really interesting question you've asked. I know when I came off the Monarch Course at Gleneagles I thought the whole property had been neglected. Same with Haig Point and Bloody Point on Dafuskie Island, SC; Merit Club in Illinois; Bobby's Sunriver Course in Oregon; Palmer's ArborLinks in Nebraska. Almost any TPC in the Southeast or Southwest commits the same oversight, too, if you think about it (except TPC Sawgrass). I'm just rollodexing through my brain here, but the phenomenon of a wasted opportunty on a pretty good site is really sad.

[Hunt]

It's been mentioned before and it should be mentioned again:
Bay Harbor MI

[Jimmy Muratt]

The following were both wonderful sites that could have yielded MUCH better golf courses:

Ocean Forest Golf Club  (Sea Island, GA)
Spanish Bay  (Carmel, CA)

[Gerry B]

agree with the assessment of Jasna Polana - except the mansion

have not played it but heard that fox harb'r in atlantic canada could have been much better than it is - my bet is that messr Dewar's upcoming Cabot Links will be much more representative of a what a great course should be on a great piece of property as it relates to that part of the world

Do not love Spanish Bay but there must have been many limitations with the environmentalists when they built the place -any thoughts on this ?

[Gerry B]

Ian:

That is exactly what I was told.

On a side note -congratulations on your new venture - we are all pulling for you.

[Gerry B]

time to get out the barf bag!thanks for the photos Ian

[Andrew Summerell]

Old Head

[Matt_Sullivan]

What about National Ocean on the Mornington Peninsula?

[Tyler Kearns]

time to get out the barf bag!thanks for the photos Ian

Gerry,

My comments are taken from only seen the pictures Ian posted, and from a quick perousal, your comments seem a little harsh.

Certainly #15 draws the eye and play away from the ocean, which is clearly the most promonent feature and therefore does not take advantage of its natural beauty. This is symptomatic of a poor routing decision.

However, #16 appears to hug the coastline, taking full advantage of the oceanfront property, and while I agree that the containment mounding left is unnecessary and should have been left natural, the ocean is still visible, and its proximity to the coast allows golfers to feel the effects of a stiff ocean breeze. Granted, the left hand side greenside bunker seems out of step with an easy strategic hole that asks players to play as near to the ocean as possible to gain a better angle of attack.

Miss yes, huge miss, I think I need more of an explanation.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

Half Moon Bay

[Kevin_Reilly]

Tyler, what do you think is great about the HMB land?

[Steve Lapper]

THIS IS A LAY-UP.............

The BRIDGE (at Bridgehampton)....could be the greatest waste of exceptional land (and views).

[redanman]

the course that most resembles that comment was one I played for the first time this past year.   The Reserve in Carmel Valley.

Just an incredible property and plenty of it.   The course is OK, but falls well short of what that property could have produced.

I believe that you mean the Preserve at Santa Lucia? Tatum & Fazio, basically?

All that course needs is some better green complexes - more like #10.  Yes the routing and the holes themselves could be improved somewhat, but the worst part is the green complexes or the lack of creativity in them.  The cours is far from the most ho-hum on great land.



As regards Jasna Polana - I have very fond memories about my time there with my lap dog.  We truly enjoyed ourselves.  We had fun like little children.  We had a very enjoyable day.  We particularily enjoyed the blind chipping areas shaped like teardrops, unique in our experiences, plethoric on the second nine.

But, I'd hardly call it a great piece of land.

Here I must agree (somehow!  ) with the Slapper.  I think the Bridge falls particularily short given the beautiful land used for the course, it could really have been something.  

Routing?  OK to good.  
Individual holes?  Rather lacking in strategy, aesthetics and memorability.  
Green complexes? Simply, sadly soporific. Upgraded greens here aren't enough.

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree with Brad concerning the TPC courses.  I was a member at Avenel and everyone agreed that while there were a few good holes the course was an opportunity lost.  

[Tucker Davis]

The Challenge at Manale Bay.

[ForkaB]

Cruden Bay

[Tyler Kearns]

Kevin,

Perhaps I am putting too much stock in oceanside property. I took a look at the course on their website, and you're right, apart from the oecan frontage, the land is not terribly inspiring.

TK

[PThomas]

I NEVER thought I'd see Cruden Bay on this list Rich..pls explain your thoughts

[jeffwarne]

Nice to see The Bridge and Cruden Bay have something in common

[Sam Sikes]

There seems to be a theme here, so Im going to throw out "everything by Rees Jones"

[ForkaB]

I NEVER thought I'd see Cruden Bay on this list Rich..pls explain your thoughts

Slightly mischievous, but I've articulated these thoughts many times before on this forum (and have received not insignificant support from others....).  To summarize:

1. NEVER should have let the prime linksland in the middle of the course be used for a pitch and putt.
2.  See 1. above
3.  First two holes are medicore and uninspiring
4.  The humpf to the 9th tee gets you a great view but at what cost?
5.  To answer 4. above:
  --Flawed 8th, 9th and 10th holes.
  --a virtually impossible routing conundrum for 15 and 16.

The bottom line:

Fowler/Simpson/Whomever got 5 great holes (3-7) and a mish mash of quirk and rubbish on the 13 others from a property which could have produced one of the finest links courses in the world.  Maybe it wasn't their fault ("the client made me do it" excuse).  I do not know.

Cheers

Rich

[Sean_A]

Rich

I think ho hum is a bit severe.  However many of your points are valid despite the flawed conclusion.

Points 1 and 2 are excellent.

3 is spot on.

I am not sure what 4 and 5 mean, but the 9th hole is a drag.  It really is a pleasant walked spoiled.  The 8th is not my cup of tea.  However, the green for the 10th is excellent and it is worth getting down to this part of the course because the 13th is one of my favorite par 5s and one of the best holes on the course.  Also, the 11th is quite a good one shotter.  #15 is a waste of time, but #16 is a very good par 3.  In general you are right, the routing down to this part of the course is far from ideal.  

I think Cruden is largely an opportunity lost, but 6 great holes couldn't be called ho hum.

Ciao

Sean

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