Leave Merion to the Members and...

[wsmorrison]

Dan,

Don't forget 3 back to front and 15 in the front.  15 in this location might have the most slope of any green.

[Dan Boerger]

Wayne - Excellent point. For some reason, 12 always "seems" the most severe to this average golfer! Another shot that I supsect will be a non-issue to the pros but makes me break out in a cold sweat is the second shot on #2. Ardmore Ave has magnetic qualities on my approach. -Dan

[wsmorrison]

You sure are right about the tee shot on 2, Dan.  12 does seem more severe although I think Matt Shaffer told me that the slope on 15 is greater.  12 green is the only green I've ever 5-putted on!

[ForkaB]

Forgive me if I have missed this somewhere in the first 50+ posts of this thread, but.......

Isn't it the right of the members of Merion to decide whether or not they want a US Open and if so, what they will do to the course in order to do so?  Open or no Open--in either case it will be left to the Members.  No?

[SPDB]

Forgive me if I have missed this somewhere in the first 50+ posts of this thread, but.......

Isn't it the right of the members of Merion to decide whether or not they want a US Open and if so, what they will do to the course in order to do so?  Open or no Open--in either case it will be left to the Members.  No?

Rich - You have obviously not been reading the Del Paso thread (either one). Like the decision to either alter or restore a course, the choice to hold a championship is not appropriately left in the hands of a club, but rather moves forward by Golfclubatlas.com fiat.

And remember: (brow)beatings will continue even after morale has improved.    

[Scott Stearns]

David Ober writes-

"In your context above, what does "MUCH better" mean to you as it applies to Merion?

The top 5-10 college golfers every year are PGA Tour caliber players. As you go down the list, they get further and further from that standard, but the top 50 college golfers in the country are certainly not MUCH worse (at least not as I would define it) than PGA Tour players -- especially not on a one or two round basis. Over four rounds, though, definitely."

So lets review the past few amateurs

2004-Ryan Moore Defeats Luke List.  Medalist Ryan Moore

2003-Nick Flanagan def. Casey Wittenberg Mdalist John Holmes

2002-Ricky Barnes def Hunter Mahan, Medalist Bill Haas

2001-bubba dickerson def robert hamilton medalist chris mundorf

2000 Jeff Quinney def. jimmy driscoll co-medalists jim salinetti, jeff wilson

of these players, only Ryan Moore made the tour the following year.  you have to go back to 1996 to find a finalist or medalist who made the tour the following year.

of the 16 players listed above, 9 have no status on the pga tour. a majority have never sniffed the tour.  those that are on the tour took a few years folowing the amateur to do so, and only Ryan Moore is a legitimate contender (charitably) to win an Open on his current game.  most who do have cards are firmly entrenched in the second half of the money list.

the players on tour are MUCH better than the top amateurs, particularly when 72 holes of stroke play are the benchmark.  Quick-name the best finish by an amateur in the Open in recent years?

I believe the biggest difference in pro an amateur games is the short game, esp. putting, making the relative challenge of Merion to each group hard to estimate based on driving distance.

[ForkaB]

The very top amateurs are +4-5.  The average exempt pro is probably +6-8.  Tiger is +9-10 when firing on all cylinders.  As an elite player, David, you should know what a huge gap it is from +2 to +5 and what an even bigger gap it is from +5 to +8.

To compare what the pros might do to Merion vs. what the top amateurs did last year is like comparing Roger Federer to whoever is the current NCAA tennis champion.  IMHO, of course.

[Scott Stearns]

Tom Paul writes:

"A lot of people for some reason sit there and calculate that a tour pro could hit wedge 10 or more times at Merion, or they could hit 2 iron off the tees or whatever and therefore tear the place apart score-wise. People who say stuff like that basically either don't know or just don't understand Merion. That may be true on some other courses but it's not true on Merion if the weather does cooperate..."

The "that my be true at Zipper National but its not true at Merion/NGLA/cypress/sandhills/bandon" of reasoning pervades GCA.

Said another way, instead of telling me in effect, that i just dont get it, please explain what it is that i dont get.  I love Merion.  I was at the amateur and it was absolutely peaked.  and tiger woods/phil mickelson/pick your us open contender, would have done 2-3 strokes better than any amateur per round.  their short games are that much better.

if a tour player hits 10 wedges on a US Open course he is going to score better than he would on a course where he hits fewer wedges.  period.  how can this be untrue

having said all this, i really do understand your affinity for the course, and i hope that if the course gets the open that it goes well.

[George Pazin]

The very top amateurs are +4-5.  The average exempt pro is probably +6-8.  Tiger is +9-10 when firing on all cylinders.  As an elite player, David, you should know what a huge gap it is from +2 to +5 and what an even bigger gap it is from +5 to +8.

To compare what the pros might do to Merion vs. what the top amateurs did last year is like comparing Roger Federer to whoever is the current NCAA tennis champion.  IMHO, of course.

Depends on what you're comparing.

These kids are in fact longer than many or most pros. Whether it's by choice or not, they are. I stood and watched many at the US Am at Oakmont in 03, and I stood and watched many pros at the 84 Lumber.

Also, Jamie or MWP indicated that the setup for the Am did not end up being as difficult as it generally is for the Hugh Wilson. You can bet the USGA would not allow that to happen for the US Open, so it would not surprise me if the final results would be similar to the scoring in the medal play portion. Probably a little better, but not much.

And Scott, if you think Tiger et al would be 2-3 strokes better per round than any amateur who played at Merion, well, you haven't been paying attention to the recent results of some amateurs. I might give you Tiger, but not the et al. Spencer Levin finished in the top 15 as an am at Shinnecock, Ryan Moore finished in the top 15 (or so, can't remember exactly) at The Masters, and Barnes and Wittenberg both had pretty solid finishes at The Masters, as well as Kuchar's stellar play in '98 as an am.

[Mike_Cirba]

Forgive me if I have missed this somewhere in the first 50+ posts of this thread, but.......

Isn't it the right of the members of Merion to decide whether or not they want a US Open and if so, what they will do to the course in order to do so?  Open or no Open--in either case it will be left to the Members.  No?

Rich,

It wasn't in the first 50 posts in this thread.  Instead, I refer you to Page 121, paragraph 4 of the GCA Handbook, under heading "GCA Eminent Domain", which reads, in part;

"...and for purposes of classic golf course preservation, we the undersigned do fully assume all rights and responsibilities deemed neecessary to fully protect and defend said courses from decay, disfigurement, and destruction from any parties, particularly when such threats come directly from members of those clubs, particularly in the (noxious) form of Green Committees, Grounds Beautification Committees, and/or any grouping formed for the expressed reason of making their course "tougher" for any purpose, up to and including positioning themselves to host a major professional tournament..."

Didn't you get the memo addendum to the standard handbook?

Essentially, on GCA we have the same broad latitude as President Bush does in conducting wiretapping and other clandestine operations, according to the way that reads.  I'm trying to see if I can get Atty General Gonzales to offer an opinion, but he's been sort of busy.  

[Mark Brown]

TE

Thanks for the info about what clubs were used on tee shots at Merion. It was very helpful.

Although I've looked like a horse's arse on this post it's been fun and very informative.

Cheers!

[ForkaB]

Thanks for reminding me, Mike

Tommy Naccarato ate my handbook at Kings Putter I.

George

You are hallucinating again.  Just remember, the green acid is good, the brown acid is bad...

[George Pazin]

At least my hallucinations are based on direct observation and actual results. If that be hallucinating, well, then I'm all for it.

I've never actually seen acid, outside of the chem lab, anyway, so I'll take your word on the green v brown thing, but I needn't worry about either.

[TEPaul]

"The very top amateurs are +4-5.  The average exempt pro is probably +6-8.  Tiger is +9-10 when firing on all cylinders.  As an elite player, David, you should know what a huge gap it is from +2 to +5 and what an even bigger gap it is from +5 to +8."

Richard, where in the hell do you get stuff like this? You state those numbers with such certainty it appears you got them all out of the GHIN system "Socring Records" and handicap ratings of all those players.

Apparently you've been having too many discussions of late with Tom MacWood, and now as he sometimes does you're just pulling stuff out of thin air and trying to pass it off on here as if it were fact.  

[TEPaul]

"Although I've looked like a horse's arse on this post it's been fun and very informative."

Mark:

Don't say that. If Pat Mucci disagrees with something you say on this website you may automatically and most definitely consider yourself to be extremely intelligent, attractive and successful!

[ForkaB]

"The very top amateurs are +4-5.  The average exempt pro is probably +6-8.  Tiger is +9-10 when firing on all cylinders.  As an elite player, David, you should know what a huge gap it is from +2 to +5 and what an even bigger gap it is from +5 to +8."

Richard, where in the hell do you get stuff like this? You state those numbers with such certainty it appears you got them all out of the GHIN system "Socring Records" and handicap ratings of all those players.

Apparently you've been having too many discussions of late with Tom MacWood, and now as he sometimes does you're just pulling stuff out of thin air and trying to pass it off on here as if it were fact.  

Tom

Those numbers are based on facts.  For the tour pros, numerous people have periodically computed "handicaps" and they come in the range I suggest.  As for the very best amateurs, you can get that from GHIN.  Last I heard only a very, very few have ever got as low as +6, including Justin Leonard and Sergio Garcia.  This jibes with the fact that these very top amateurs can occasionally compete with the exempt pros, as George suggests.

You must know, as a formerly competitive amateur that even at your peak you didn't have a chance of matching someone like Sigel or Holtgrieve over 72 holes of stroke play, even if you could scare them from time to time in match play.  Same goes for the guys that teed it up at Merion last year.  Let's see how many of them actually qualify for this year's US Open and how many of them actually make the cut.

Please prove me wrong, if you can, but I don't think you can.

[David Ober]

"The very top amateurs are +4-5.  The average exempt pro is probably +6-8.  Tiger is +9-10 when firing on all cylinders.  As an elite player, David, you should know what a huge gap it is from +2 to +5 and what an even bigger gap it is from +5 to +8."

Richard, where in the hell do you get stuff like this? You state those numbers with such certainty it appears you got them all out of the GHIN system "Socring Records" and handicap ratings of all those players.

Apparently you've been having too many discussions of late with Tom MacWood, and now as he sometimes does you're just pulling stuff out of thin air and trying to pass it off on here as if it were fact.  

You're absolutely right that the gap is huge, IF you are talking about improving from one level to the next. However, the gap is NOT that huge if you're just talking about scores

Meaning: Take a field of elite amateurs and have them play a course and then have a typical field of PGA Tour pros play the course, and what you'll find is that several of the elite amateurs will beat many of the pros on a one and two round basis.

Over four rounds, you will find that the PGA Tour guys will average significantly fewer strokes as a group, certainly. How many fewer? My guess would be that on a standard tough golf course (7200, 75.2/140), an elite field of amateurs would average about 295, whereas the PGA Tour field would average about 285.

Over four rounds, that's a big difference, but it's only a 2.5 stroke difference per ROUND. That's all I'm sayin'.

Feel free to disagree. :-)

[PThomas]

Mike C:  well done!!!!

[ForkaB]

Over four rounds, that's a big difference, but it's only a 2.5 stroke difference per ROUND. That's all I'm sayin'.

Feel free to disagree. :-)

Thanks, David.  That confirms my estimate above.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike C:  well done!!!!

Paul,

Thanks!  

I think that one got slipped into the GCA Defense Appropriations Bill that passed just before recess this past fall.  With all of the self-serving pork riding on that one, I doubt anyone actually read the GCA Bill in its entirety before voting in the affirmative.  

[Jim Nugent]

To throw some more fuel on the amateur-vs-pro fray:

*  Last year's U.S. Am winner was in the top 15 or 20 after two rounds of the British Open.  Score one for the amateurs.

*  His opponent in the U.S. Am finals averaged 75 during his 2005 collegiate year.  Can the amateurs really have much depth when a guy who is maybe scratch nearly wins their most prestigious event?  

*  Michelle Wie had the 6th or 7th lowest round on Friday at the Sony.  In two other pro tournaments she beat nearly half the field, including a number of former winners and major winners.  Either: a) she got lucky three times, b) Michelle is much better than elite male amateurs, or c) top amateurs are not so far behind the pro's after all.  

[Scott Stearns]

questions-

1-where did "last years us amateur champion" FINISH the british open

2-where did the four champions before him finish the subsequent british open

3-with respect to michelle wie, the answer is (d) WHO CARES that michelle wie shot 60-something in one round over her home course with no (by us open standards) rough, when she knew that she was loading her clubs in the trunk at the end of the round.  She certainly is very good, and some of her performances in men's events have been remarkable, but we have established the she is not yet as good as elite male amateurs at the APL last year, where over a distinctly not-us open setup she was beaten soundly by clay ogden, who while VERY good is not credible as a us open contender.

i'll give you michelle and three strokes and take Casey Wittenberg or Ricky Barnes in their last summer as an amateur.  Both of whom, by the way, couldn't get on tour this year.  And i'm talking 18 holes of match play.  Over 4 rounds of stroke play, either winds up playing the last nine holes on his knees to stay awake.

In 3 above, I'm not knocking wie so much as wondering why people feel compelled to extrapolate to legend, world changing mega-star from a few missed cuts?

I think wie will become a great woman player after she gets over being 16, and i will enjoy seeing whether she can win a mens event, but please, golf writers, theres nothing new to write about here until she gets to a weekend, and shooting 90-90 and 79-60-whatever at waialie(sp) both read the same way in the record book---MC

[TEPaul]

"Tom
Those numbers are based on facts."

Rich:

It always makes me suspicious when people say things like that. BASED on facts, huh? What happened to "just facts" period?

You remind me of Nicholson in that great recent movie with Diane Keaton "Something's Got to Give".

Obviously somewhat reluctantly she finds herself falling in love with the smooth old philanderer and then she catches him at a restaurant in NYC with another beautiful young girl.  

She runs out of the restaurant in horror and he follows her into the street. She stammers, "You broke my heart", and Jack retorts with, "But I never lied to you, I've always told you some version of the truth."

Funniest thing I ever heard.  

[AndrewB]

Quick-name the best finish by an amateur in the Open in recent years?

The Open: Justin Rose.
US Open: Spencer Levin.

I think those were the last two finishes of note by amateurs in Opens.  Spencer Levin's finish was in 2004 at Shinnecock Hills, but I don't remember what year Justin Rose's finish was (he's been pro for several years, now).

[JESII]

The point is that there is a significant difference between the best amateurs and the pros that make a living on the PGA Tour. I don't think anyone has argued that.

Could Merion defend itself against a US Open field?
     What does that mean? If it means will even par be the winning score? The answer is no. There are too many iron off the tee and wedge into the green holes (1, 7, 8, 10, 11) there for those guys to have a par or birdie virtually locked up. But, if "defending itself" means providing a real and true comprehensive challenge to the best players in the world then the answer is yes. With ideal weather conditions the answer would be an emphatic yes because what is on the ground at Merion is so good it's really only best demonstrated when the ball is able to move on the ground. A realistic look at how these guys might play the course will reveal just how many different clubs each would hit through the course of a round.