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Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« on: January 16, 2006, 11:02:31 AM »
Yesterday, during the telecast from Hawaii, after they announced that the course was designed by Seth Raynor, Ian Baker-Finch said something like, "anyone that knows anything about golf architecture has Raynor in their top 3 of all time."  

Is he right?  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2006, 11:09:26 AM »
Absolutely!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2006, 11:12:22 AM »
Oh, I think he makes it on his own.  Take Chicago Golf for instance.  There are rumblings that Mac wanted to control him without being the gca of record, since Mac had designed the original.  Rumor has it that it was the first time in history some one thought to turn off his cell phone.........

However, somehow Raynor there and elsewhere, came up with some pretty good courses - far more than his Mentor did as a hobby gca.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

redanman

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2006, 11:15:12 AM »
Top three firms or teams?

Wait til Wayne-O sees this!

Raynor et al, Flynn and who else?  This list is getting tight considering the support on here for Mackenzie, Colt and Tillinghast, not to mention Doak and (BDAW) C & C!

Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stay tuned.......

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 11:23:29 AM »
Take this with a grain of salt.  However, if, for the masses, they had Raynor in their "top 3", it wouldn't be such a bad thing, considering most average golfers knowledge of architecture is gnerally poor at best... not like us  :P

well, most of us  ;)
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 11:24:58 AM »
I have read that IBF is a budding architect and has worked in JN's office learning the basics of design and construction with hopes of entering the profession. Now that ABC won't be televising PGA golf next year, he will have more time to learn.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 11:25:24 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Kavanaugh

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 11:32:38 AM »
Jeff,

I've seen various associates that start their own firms mention that they left because they wanted to design courses using their "style".  Ian Andrews mentioned this recently.

So a few questions:

1) Considering that Raynor basically build CBM replica holes, why do you think his conscious never got the best of him?  



Brian,

One of the keys to being a good engineer is to not redesign everything from scratch on every project.  I used to design bridges using templates and never lost a nights sleep worrying about the trolls underneath..

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 11:33:50 AM »
IBF has entered the profession with 2 courses- 1 in Dubai in association with JN- Arabian Ranches GC- and the other in Indonesia-www.ghotw.com/hotel/golf/bintan-lagoon.htm

I think his statement re Raynor was hyperbole and, upon proper reflection, he wouldn't have been so bold.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ryan Wharton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 12:05:17 PM »
I would put him top 3 of all time, but Waialae doesn't bare the resemblance of many of Raynor's courses. Raynor was a master of copying holes (redan,biarritz,alps,road, etc....), at many of the sites he designed without the use of modern earth moving equipment. He also incorporated rectangle type cross-bunkering and squared edges on greens. I visited Chicago GC this year for the Walker Cup, and fell in love with his work. Waialae does not look like a typical Raynor design, but it is still a good course. Does anyone know if its undergone any major restoration since the original Raynor? My guess is that it surely has.

TEPaul

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 01:50:10 PM »
Raynor in the top three of all time?

Not in my book. I think there were probably three English Heathland architects better.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 01:54:13 PM by TEPaul »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2006, 02:53:41 PM »
I have read that IBF is a budding architect and has worked in JN's office learning the basics of design and construction with hopes of entering the profession. Now that ABC won't be televising PGA golf next year, he will have more time to learn.
IBF was a co-designer of the Links at Kennedy Bay near Perth.  I havn't played there, but it usually ranks around 10 in Australia, so it must be pretty good.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2006, 03:09:47 PM »
I would not put Raynor in my top 3 of all time, and I'd like to think I know at least a little about golf course architecture!

And Brauer should be spanked for dismissing C.B. Macdonald as a "hobby gca"!  National is WAY better than anything the two of them did together afterwards.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2006, 07:09:39 PM »
......And Brauer should be spanked for dismissing C.B. Macdonald as a "hobby gca"!  National is WAY better than anything the two of them did together afterwards.

So, the minimalist market isn't enough for you Tom?  You are now slyly letting us know you are going after the"kinky owners" market?

Seriously, while NLGA is the best of the bunch of that entire school of architecture, the fact that CB was also an investor, and had free reign, etc. puts it in a separate class from all the courses where they simply acted as paid consultant.

  I used Chicago as an example, because you can see how far Raynor (with help from CBM) came in substance from C B's original design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2006, 07:37:21 PM »
I would not put Raynor in my top 3 of all time, and I'd like to think I know at least a little about golf course architecture!

Tom,

Consdering your recent work and existing projects, would you put yourself anywhere near your personal Top 3?

Brian,
I would think anyone in any profession that is worth their salt would consider themselves as their favorite and hopefully would be non pretentous about it.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2006, 07:40:11 PM »
Mike:

I think I'm pretty good.  I think I have a few more courses to build before anyone can really judge where I belong in the best architects of all time.  I've only done 22 courses; that's close to George Thomas and C.B. Macdonald in number, but nothing compared to Colt or MacKenzie or Ross.  (Not that I'll ever build that many!)

And aside from that, I do not like to see anyone "rank" architects.  You should be judged entirely on the basis of the courses you've built, and each on their own merits.  And you're only as good as your next one!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 07:41:41 PM by Tom_Doak »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2006, 09:16:08 PM »

1) Considering that Raynor basically build CBM replica holes, why do you think his conscious never got the best of him?
Would you detail exactly how Westhampton, Hackensack and Everglades represent the reproduction of CBM replica holes ?
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2) In today's society, if someone's associate left and basically built replica holes of his mentor, how would that be perceived by the press, Golf Architects Society, etc.?

Is that how you perceive the body of Seth Raynor's work ?

What courses of his and what courses of CBM's have you played ?
[/color]

3) Back then, was Raynor chosen for his architectural style, or his name cache?  Did having a Raynor design mean that your club would be considered an upper-crust club?
To whom are you addressing your question ?
Noone on this site was an adult and in the know in 1926.
[/color]

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2006, 05:30:58 PM »
My exposure to architecture is not as broad as I would like.  However, the Raynor's I've played (Yale and Fox Chapel) are incredibly cool.  My guess is I'd feel the same way about many of his other creations.  I played the Old White at the Greenbrier last summer which isn't up to the standard of Yale or FC but am not sure whether this is CBM or Raynor.  In any case the "restoration" on this course didn't do much for me.

Ranking architects is like ranking painters, composers or favorite movies.  Some prefer Rembrandt to Picasso.  Mozart to Beethoven.  The Godfather to Citizen Kane.

What you can build a consensus around is whether someone's body of work constitutes "greatness" in an admittedly subjective endeavor.  From what I've seen, Raynor definitely qualifies in GCA.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2006, 05:42:37 PM »
I think he and Mac together fall in that category. The top of the heap is a good club to be in and I think it has more than 3 members. Tilly, Allister Mac, Ross, Stanley Thompson, Flynn and say Colt....
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 12:14:04 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2006, 05:48:13 PM »
I think he and Mac together fall in that category. the top of the heap is a good club to be in and I think it has more than 3 members. Tilly, Allister Mac, Ross, Stanley Thompson, Flynn and say Colt, Braid ....

John

What are you doing?  You can't give Braid any credit as an architect!  That is contrary to all that is sacred and known to be true on this site.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill Wernecke Jr

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2006, 06:02:14 PM »
Although I understand why you think ranking architects is a bad idea, what is wrong with an individual having an opinion of his favorite architects? (As long as he acknowledges that is his opinion only and not a true fact).

One of the strengths of this site is that people have strong opinions about their likes and dislikes.  I often do not agree, but I respect their feelings and I have learned a lot.

I know that I would rate Raynor in my top 3, but I am not presumptuous enough to think that it would hold for anyone else.  I do like to take people to play Raynor courses so that they can decide for themselves.

When I travel, I definitely base my choice of courses on the architects involved, and it has served me well.

Is rating or ranking architects like rating or ranking women?  They are all good, but some are better than others depending on the preferences!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2006, 07:05:45 PM »
I just don't like the idea of ranking architects because from then on you are biased toward any course that guy has designed, and less objective in your assessments.  You can't get that way on a course-by-course basis.

Sure, there are some architects whose work I no longer seek out so actively, but that's an example of closed-mindedness on my part.  I'm sure there is someone out there who didn't like High Pointe and Black Forest and will not go to see anything I've done since.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2006, 07:43:14 PM »
I agree completely, Mr Doak.  I'll use Mr. Wernecke's analogy of women.  One may not like all Swedish women, but most of us will agree that, say Elin Nordegren-Woods is pretty darned attractive. I'm sure most architects have designed some real stinkers.  But if you really wanted to make an architect-rating system, here is the only way I might do it, but this method is totally hypothetical, as it leaves much up to dispute.

Here goes: you figure out the best 500-1000 courses in the world, and arrange the courses by architect, and you take the architect with the highest percentage of his courses in that top 500-1000 (you can weight the average if you want).  But there must be qualifications; a minimum course requirement, say 15 or so.

Just a thought.

Personally, I consider Raynor/Macdonald/Banks as one entity, though I'm sure there are some differences in their work.  I put this tripod in my own personal top three (though I've only played Yale and Hotchkiss), along with Strantz and Ross perhaps.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 07:43:50 PM by Tim Gavrich »
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ian Andrew

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2006, 10:54:43 PM »
I think it's easier to list who is not in your personal top three than actually take it down to three.

I'll provide a personal example, I wouldn't pick Ross. Suprisingly for some, I would not take Travis either - which I think confused Ran when he asked. I still heavily respect both architects work, but the stuff that blows my mind came more consistantly from others.

But how do you select from Mackenzie, Colt, Thomas, Tillinghaust, Raynor, MacDonald, and others. I couldn't and give the same answer consistantly.

A great example is Thomas, what I've seen tells me he was a brialliant strategist, but can I judge an architect from only LACC and Riviera. I don't think that's possible.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 10:57:05 PM by Ian Andrew »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2006, 11:04:32 PM »
I hope I-B-F was talking about the original Raynor-designed/Banks-built design (very complex bunkering)and was not talking about what is there today - today, itz a great course, but does not look or play like the original.

I'll see if I can post the original plan (the one that was proposed to the Hotel - I'm sure it was watered down when built)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mark Brown

Re:Raynor -- was Ian Baker-Finch right?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2006, 11:23:40 PM »
If pressed I'd take Mackenzie, (probably Colt, but I haven't seen enough of his work) Doak, Crenshaw & Coore.

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