How much does the good player curve the ball?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thanks for all the great responses to the advantage thread.

Now, a related question.....

I feel frontal openings were largely outdated by 20 years ago, in favor of shot patterns, for single digit handicappers.  

How much has the new equipment straightened out those shots for the best players responding here?  Or do most play mostly straight shots, perhaps allowing for wind drift.  Or perhaps, setting up to ensure that, if anything, the ball fades or hooks, depending on the angle of the green, but basically using the clubs to hit it straight?

Can you curve the ball 30 feet, or is it less now?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Being OLD, I was fortunate enough to play with and/or observe first hand, some of the former great PGA Touring pros.
I've also been fortunate enough to play with and/or observe some of the current or recently current PGA Touring pros, and have had this conversation with some of them.

It is more difficult to move the ball today than it was in 1962.
A more exaggerated grip, stance and/or swingplane is required.

While shots are still shaped, the arcs are less pronounced.

And, I think higher handicaps have benefited from self correcting clubs and balls that tend to curve less.

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on the subject.

[Doug Siebert]

As probably one of the younger ones here, I came into the game just as cavity backs were catching on and just before metal woods hit the game.  I've always been long but prone to being somewhat wild at times so curves were to be avoided, not encouraged.  While there are some occasions I'll try to curve the ball, its rare, I'll usually play it straight or play a small draw or fade if I happened to bring it with me to the course that day.  I know it'll make the traditionalists wince, but my motto has always been "why curve around something when I can just hit over it?"  Between my 400cc driver and Pro V1 balls, it is actually pretty darn difficult for me to play the fade I try on my home course's 9th tee (the bunkers there are too far for me to carry uphill into the prevailing wind)  I end up playing from the mounds in the left rough a lot.

My bet is that there'll be a big split in the answers to this question depending on when one achieved a level of competence suitable to where deliberately curving the ball can be contemplated.

I can't compare to blades since I never played them, but I get out the old persimmon driver now and then, and it is easy to notice the difference both in distance on mishits and amount of curve on shots not hit dead straight.  Though I really believe the difference between hitting a Titleist Tour Balata 100 five years ago and Pro V1 today is at least as great in terms of curve the ball will take.

[Andy Hodson]

Without a doubt it is harder to curve the ball now. Even the "blade" irons have taken weight (usually from the hosel) and moved it toward the toe, meaning not only a bigger sweet spot but less torqueing on off center hits, thus less curving. And the metal woods have virtually eliminated the bulge and roll effect of the persimmon woods, thus eliminating the gear effect and the pronounced curvature on off center hits. This, I believe, is the true nature of the success of the original Big Bertha. The balls, even on mishits, went dead straight. Maybe not dead straight forward, but basically whatever direction it went, it wasn't curving much.

But the big story IMO is the golf ball. Today's premium ball (of which there are many; basically all interchangeable) are much more stable in the air because of reduced spin imparted at impact, esp. with the driver. I stated in a much earlier thread that yes, golf balls are going farther (premium balls), they are also going much straighter; very little risk of curvature. And this is an overlooked reason for why everybody on Tour(s) hits it so damn far. They swing so hard without fear of it curving off the planet. Check out a junior tournament sometime. Its unbelievable how hard they are going at it! If the ball curved as much, or upshot as much, as it used to, my feeling is they wouldn't be swinging as hard. There is simply less fear today of the ball in flight getting away from the player.

[A.G._Crockett]

Great question, and the answer universally is less and less!
In fact, as a longtime draw player (lapsing into snap hooking all too often), it seems like a draw is harder to hit with modern equipment/balls than a fade.  I have no idea if there are physics to support that or not, but it sure does seem that way!

In a thread earlier this fall, the question was posed on GCA as to whether players would prefer to use persimmon drivers and blades with a Pro VI, or 400 cc drivers and cavity back irons with a balata ball.  The answers seemed to indicate that the better the player, the more the preference ran toward the ball rather than the clubs.  I think this ties back to the "fear factor" mentioned earlier;  good players can really go after it, not fearing the ball flight problems.

Also, this ties back to the 6500 yd. championship course thread of a couple of weeks ago.  I think that a partial answer to the "problems" of equipment/balls is shorter courses that either demand a variety of shots OR require that the ball be worked extensively if the player wishes to swing for the fences.  That does NOT look like the type of course that is so popular on this website, however!

[TEPaul]

I completely agree with what Pat Mucci said above on this thread and topic.

Obviously this must be part of that 2% of time he's correct!

[A_Clay_Man]

I thought that there was only one answer for this question for a good player: As much as he/she wants.

Noone is forcing anybody to play newer straight farther equiptment.

 I remember Tom kite winning a tourny a long time ago and he had to hit a serious cut shot on the 72nd hole. In the interview following his victory he siad he just stepped up to it and swung at it like an amateur.

Jeff- I have found there to be many a frontal opening on many a new venue. The only time i found that feature not to be present was when Jack was designing courses that seemed to have revolved around his game. I do however appreciate and think about it with wonder how Neville didn't used it on many holes at PB and made the carry an important aspect to that design.

[Tim Weiman]

Jeff Brauer:

You've touched on one of my favorite topics. How many good players actually curve the ball? I really don't know. But, this past summer I walked with Lee Jenzen for 18 holes at Waterville without anyone else around except his playing partners.

Having the opportunity to watch and listen up close was rather interesting. FYI, I don't recall ever seeing him hit anything other than a very straight ball. Keep in mind, Lee plays with MacGregor blades, so that is even more telling.

Honestly, the overall precision with which he played (and shot about a 68 ) was in some ways a turnoff. I came away feeling that I'd like to have made the money Lee has playing golf, but otherwise might prefer to stick to my 7-8 handicap. It means more challenge, more trouble and more fun, ultimately.

As for cruving the ball, I would like to see more emphasis placed on this for both approach shots and tee shots.

As a golf architect, do you believe you could build a course where the INABILITY to curve shots would be a serious scoring limitation for the modern professional?

[redanman]

As a fader, the fade has become harder and harder to hit over the last 15 years to the point that the only fade I can hit with any regularity is the driver.  

To me the balls are the biggest difference.  Preferring to hit the ball lower and lower as I have played longer, it is also easier to do so due to the ball.  

The one shot that remains easy to hit is the low running hook when not trying to get maximum distance from the club, but overall curving the ball is definitely harder than it used to be.  In Colorado it was very hard to move the ball much with current ball technology, so aerodynamics are the primary cause, however as driver technology advances, a straight ball become just about all there is for the good player.  It requires so much effort to curve it for the best players, it is not well controllable not predictable!

As for your question, Jeff, I think the answer is that a really good player (Which doesn't include me, for sure) curves it when he or she wants to, but less than ever before.  Wet greens which are now commonplace negate much need to curve the ball.  (The exception is of course "Stupid Trees"   )  So...

 
-time wise-seldom
-amount-10 yards accurately is a lot for a good ball striker  

[Tim Weiman]

Redanman:

My best round hitting fairways this year (12/14) came when I broke out my old Powerbilt and worked the ball. Granted the length was restricted (avg maybe 240), but I found fading or drawing much easier.

Putting the Noodle together with persimmon was really nice.

FYI, my 16 years old nephew thinks I'm a dinosaur and said he wouldn't even consider using such clubs!

[Gary_Mahanay]

Jeff,

     With the advancement of square grooves and the more backspin off iron shots hit with Pro V1s, the ball is not as likely to spin right or left as much.

     Here in North Texas, as you well know, all the bentgrass greens are watered so much that it matters very little about a frontal opening to run a ball on a green.  But on these Tiff-Eagle greens, at least the newly built ones, water doesn't do as much to soften them up.  Then you sure start paying attention to curving or trying to curve your ball one way or another because missing the green on the short side is a way more difficult up and down on the tiff eagle greens than the bentgrass greens.

     What I don't like is how the black clay soil of this North Texas region, on and around the area of the approaches, stays wet and soggy right next to these firm and fast Tiff-Eagle greens.  Is this a design flaw or do some superintendents need to take a closer look at their irrigation practices?

     Oh, and as Jack Nicklaus and many other great players have said, "the hardest shot in golf is the dead straight shot".  I think that still holds true today.

[Rick Shefchik]

I think Jack was right, but the degree to which the non-dead-straight shot curves has certainly diminished since he came up with that pearl of wisdom.

I agree with redanman -- the hardest shape for me to create now is the fade. I have to overemphasize the open setup, which usually results in (to use one of those worn-out TV golf expressions) an "overcooked" shot. I can still snap one at any time.

I will still try to curve the ball to a tucked pin, but I think that's the dinosaur in me coming out. It's usually not necessary.

As for leaving openings to greens, I still appreciate them and even make use of them when the course is firm enough, but they're pretty useless if the course is going to be over-watered.

[Bill_Spellman]

Jeff Brauer

I think that most good players still have a leaning toward a fade or a draw. One is usually easier for the player than the other. I have always felt that the average golfers conception of a tour pro's shot curvature was over done. From my observations, there is alot less movement with the ball, new ball or not. If a hooker of the ball wants to go the other way with it, and all he does is hit the ball straight, that is a fade to hiom and it accomplishes the need. The draw or fade, depending on the player only needs to FALL that direction, not actually curve alot. I agree that the new balls are more difficult to draw consistently.

[Philippe_Binette]

I think tour players right now don't really know how to turn the ball with accuracy and the TOUR courses they play doesn't required it too...
It's tough to control a turning ball...

I was at Royal Montreal in 2001 for the Canadian Open  and on the 13th, a par 5 that dogleg left at about 245 yards, 4 player out of 5 were hitting a straight drive trough the fairway...

Being a 2-handicap, I know that I can work the ball a lot on a finesse shot...

From 150 yards, with a 7 iron: 15 yards
From 220 yards, with a 3 wood: 20 yards
Driver 250 yards: about 15 yards in control

[A_Clay_Man]

For those having trouble cutting the ball, listen to me now and believe me later:
 SWING HARD & LOOK UP FAST

or,

try a weaker grip (move left knuckles towards the target)

[Joe Hancock]

Off the cuff I'd say I can only move the ball 50% of what I used to be able to back in the good old days.

Joe

[Andy Hodson]

Bill
Perfectly said! The guys on tour don't curve the ball (Trevino and Lietzke excluded;Nicklaus not excluded). The ball falls one way or the other. I remember watching Lanny Wadkins  in '87 or '88 (before Big Bertha and way before Pro VIs) hit four irons on the range, not in an tournament, just in practice; everyone went dead straight ... until they fell one way or the other.
Lee Janzen may have bored the watcher hitting dead straight balls, but thats what the best in the game do, and have always done! That's why they are the best. They hit it straight. It may fall one way or the other, but the shot to the naked eye is straight. The new balls just enable more players to do that. The best in the game have always done that.

[Bill_McBride]

Bruce Lietzke played a casual round at Pensacola CC not long ago (his brother in law, Jerry Pate, is a member).  I was amazed to see that he hit every shot with more of a slice than a fade, hitting the driver maybe 30 or 40 yards left and killing it 280-290 into the middle of the fairway.  But I guess if you hit it the same way every time, it's like a straight ball!  I'm sure he could hit a hook (or a straight ball) if he had to, but it sure isn't part of his game plan.  He's hitting the fade/slice with a big metal driver and a Pro VI.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Bill, except in a rare dune where at waterville would you need to shape the ball. I feel you can shape the ball 10 to 20 yards with modern equipment or more with traditional clubs if one needs too. I often do, being a man who finds the trees often. lol

[Doug Siebert]

When I was a kid many of the big name pros came out to Iowa City for the Amana VIP Pro-Am the Monday after the US Open.  I remember watching Watson hit a 3W off the 18th, which from the tees in use at the time had a sharp dogleg at about 210.  He hit a big hook around the corner, caught the slope and ended up in perfect position.  On the 3rd which curves right he hit a nice fade around the corner right in the middle of the 18 yard wide fairway between rough on the left and trap on the right.  I also saw Jim Dent attempt to hit a monster hook on the 12th to try to drive the green, but he missed it straight and hit a brick shithouse (literally!)

I'll bet if the event was held today, there'd be a lot less working the ball among the current tour players, it'd be the seniors like Watson who'd be doing that sort of thing.

[Steve Sailer]

I know that trees are deeply unfashionable on GCA, but they are now the main feature demanding that players curve the ball. Think about the PGA at Hazeltine last August. If there had been no trees on the course, the play would have been much less interesting. But because Hazeltine is a parkland (not solidly forested) course, the players were constantly forced to curve their shots around trees (and/or hit them under or over).