Tom Weiskopf as a course designer

[Mark Brown]

I haven't played enough of Tom Weiskopf's courses yet to give an intelligent critique, but I'm curious as to what GCA members think of his work and what his best courses are.
He told me his favorites are:

Loch Lamond (sp.?)
Seven Canyons
Forest Dunes (Michigan)
Lahontan
Snake River (what's the correct name?)
Double Eagle

What do you think of his designs and what are your favorites?

[Mark Leo]

I think the courses at Forest Highlands in Flagstaff,AZ are probably his best work

[Jim Johnson]

Haven't played there Mark, but my bro played at Seven Canyons several months ago and was thoroughly impressed...great golf course, incredible scenery.

JJ

[Jim Nugent]

How much design/architecture does Tom actually do?  Is he more like Palmer...like Nicklaus...or like Doak in his involvement?  

[Brad Klein]

I think Morrish-Weiskopf was a great design team; Weiskopf on his on has had much more spectacular sites to work with but I don't quite think his work is as interesting strategically without his former partner.

[Jfaspen]

Cedar River in the Schuss/Shanty Creek Complex.

Played it once a long time ago.  It was a good course, less encompassed by houses than the Legend.

[Tom_Doak]

I have only been to Loch Lomond and Double Eagle, so I guess I can't rate his work effectively.  There is a strong lack of quirk is his designs which reflects his own golf game; he builds some great driving holes which let you gamble with the driver, but his greens are mostly FLAT which isn't my cup of tea.

I think Tom may spend about as many days on a site during construction as I do, although he breaks it up much differently, or at least he used to, making 1-2 day visits.

I am not sure who does the routings of his courses.  In the old partnership, many of them were done by Jay in conjunction with a particular land planner out of Oklahoma whose name slips my mind right now ... anyway, they were often compromised by trade-offs over real estate issues, not surprising since that was their primary market.

Loch Lomond is very good, although I have always liked Forest Highlands better.  I always thought Double Eagle was a bit overrated; the first two stories a visitor would tell were about how fast the tees stimped, and about the Bye hole.  If that's the case, maybe the golf holes themselves are not so striking!

Surprised he rates Lahontan above Forest Highlands, but if it really is, it must be pretty good.  It's the same developer, so maybe he is putting his effort behind what they are still selling.  I may go see the course in Jackson Hole this summer, if I can carve out a day on my way to Rock Creek.

[Jay Flemma]

I wrote an article on Forest Dunes here:

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2005/10/forest-dunes-gc-more-great-golf-in.html

My article on The Falls in LV is here:

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2006/01/falls-gc-henderson-nv-for-las-vegas.html

I wish he'd eschew Jones doctrine of a few worm up holes because he sure builds some excellent 12 hole courses.  He's starting to loosen up creatively a bit though.  The back at Forest Dunes has some almost Mike Strantzian size and shaping too it, as well as bunkering.  And some holes at The Falls are out there.  I confess to loving Troon north Pinnacle, for especially the excellent routing and some of the hole shaping as well.

The only design he worked on that didnt resonate at all with me was Quail Hollow in ohio...really mundane...except the back, which was tight and watery...on both sides.

For a former touring pro, I think he may be one of the most original and observant voices out there...very good.

[Matt_Ward]

Weiskopf has been blessed with projects that have provided for deep pocket developers and some of the most gorgeous terrain one could ever hope to work with as a designer.

I personally believe that Lahontan and Silverleaf are two of the best Weiskopf designs since his split with Jay Moorish. Not only are the sites first rate from the scenery meter but the routing and hole variety is more htan just good -- it's first rate IMHO.

Seven Canyons gets plenty of ink but much of the fanfare / hoopla is tied to the setting. Weiskopf was constricted with the course because of the property and much of the routing is primarily similar in terms of hole creativity. In sum -- Weiskopf has been there done that with Seven Canyons.

His work at Forest Highlands (Meadows) is a good follow-up to the joint project he and Moorish did with the Canyons layout.

Two of the more anticipated Weiskopf '06 projects will be in the greater Jackson area -- with Yellowstone in neaby MT and Snake River in WY.

I have never been enamored with Double Eagle -- gets plenty of ink on the conditioning side (rightly I might add) but the strategic virtues are simply pedestrian especially when the course is held to the light of other OH gems like Inverness, Camargo, etc, etc.

[Forrest Richardson]

Phil Smith is Tom's right-hand guy. Phil, I believe, spends a lot of time on routings and in the field bringing the firm's vision to reality. I hope to get the chance to overlap our work at Promontory (Park City, Utah) with Tom's — it looks as if Weiskopf will do the fourth course there (Dye, Nicklaus, Richardson....Weiskopf).

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I have only been to Loch Lomond and Double Eagle, so I guess I can't rate his work effectively.  There is a strong lack of quirk is his designs which reflects his own golf game; he builds some great driving holes which let you gamble with the driver, but his greens are mostly FLAT which isn't my cup of tea.

I think Tom may spend about as many days on a site during construction as I do, although he breaks it up much differently, or at least he used to, making 1-2 day visits.

I am not sure who does the routings of his courses.  In the old partnership, many of them were done by Jay in conjunction with a particular land planner out of Oklahoma whose name slips my mind right now ... anyway, they were often compromised by trade-offs over real estate issues, not surprising since that was their primary market.

Loch Lomond is very good, although I have always liked Forest Highlands better.  I always thought Double Eagle was a bit overrated; the first two stories a visitor would tell were about how fast the tees stimped, and about the Bye hole.  If that's the case, maybe the golf holes themselves are not so striking!

Surprised he rates Lahontan above Forest Highlands, but if it really is, it must be pretty good.  It's the same developer, so maybe he is putting his effort behind what they are still selling.  I may go see the course in Jackson Hole this summer, if I can carve out a day on my way to Rock Creek.

Tom;

Given what you had said above, I recall a quote from Weiskopf in an older Golf Digest interview--this would have been the first of the two Feature Interviews he did.  

Here's the link to the interview;

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/index.ssf?/features/dialogue_osghpj5c.html  

In reference to his quote about "Look, my idea of a great course..." when commenting on various architects, how well do you think he has stuck to what he said, 'walked the walk' so to speak, over the past 15 years?  

I do realize we all grow and mature as people over time.  I also realize demands placed on him as an architect by the client may have provided some constraint or parameter for his design (or, and I know you'll like this choice of words, "if you take the king's shilling...")

As you said above, "...which reflects his own golf game..."

So, to reiterate, how well do you think he has backed up what he has said?  Do his courses, to your eye, make the player play the Tom Weiskopf game?  

[Mark Brown]

Weiskopf said he works hard to make courses playable and enjoyable for the members -- keeps the bunkers from being too deep or even in play off the tee. That's his measures on how good the course -- is it what his client wanted -- including the maintenance costs.

He also talked at length about risk-reward strategy

"At the end of the day, I would rather be remembered for the golf courses I've designed than my record as a competitive golfer." He really enjoys design.

He said he visits sites about 20 times and likes to do 3 or 4 per year.

[Mike_Cirba]

To be somewhat frank, it sounds like Tom Weiskopf has life by the balls.

He's doing something he enjoys a great deal, and he doesn't need to be particularly noteworthy at it to keep the checks coming in, or to improve his cache over time.

I mean, who among us wouldn't like to be both a historically noted player of rank, and then to spend our days working on 3 or 4 courses a year without the great urgency to see those courses become either profitable or awarded with acclaim.

It must be very nice to wake up in the morning, honestly, and to hear he's still delivering some pretty good courses without the educated training of Mr. Morrish is somewhat a dream come true for any of us Walter Mittyish 60-somethings.

[Mark Brown]

Mike

You're right on the money. I could tell he's having the time of his life when I talked to him.

[redanman]

Another opinion:

Weiskopf has built courses that are consistently better than average, but are not ever truly thrilling. They are often beautiful.  

Take the short potentially driveable par 4 that he seems to have always put in one per nine.  None of them are really great that I have seen: rewarding, satisfying thrilling holes one ho9pes for in a driveable par 4. (See Pac Dunes, Applebrook, Four Streams or Old Memorial and say Easthampton to name a few modern ones)

I always try to play them (pre or post partners), but I never come away truly satisfied as they are just a little too "clean" and politically correct for me.  They just don't have that extra oooopmph that makes for great architecture.

Maybe he should take more chances. Risking failure probably brings out the best in anyone.

[Jerry Kluger]

I thought that Silverleaf was a wonderful course and he took a chance by having only 3 par 3s.  

[Sean_A]

Bill

While I have never been lucky enough to play Loch Lomond, the few people I know who have been there say it is outstanding.  Golf World touts he very highly as well.  I think it runs somewhere in top 25 of UK and perhaps the top parkland course in the UK.  Well above average.  Oh yeah, LL is meant to be beautiful as well!

Ciao

Sean

[Jay Flemma]

I'm heartened by both Tom's comments and by his recent work.  I for one really enjoyed watching him play as well.  Slowly as he's evolved on his own as a designer, he's let his hair down a bit.  I wish the prices at the public courses would come down ($125 for Forest Dunes is too high and $200+ for The Falls is also high).  There have been some really interesting concepts of late.

Also, I have a hunch that many of you may NOT like it, but I still confess to really liking Troon North Pinacle.  What do you guys think of it?

[Jerry Kluger]

Jay:  I haven't played Troon North but I have played Troon CC and I really liked it.  There were a number of holes with interesting strategy options and it isn't flashy or over the top - in short, I thought it was a really good course which the membership could play again and again and enjoy it.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm heartened by both Tom's comments and by his recent work.  I for one really enjoyed watching him play as well.  Slowly as he's evolved on his own as a designer, he's let his hair down a bit.  I wish the prices at the public courses would come down ($125 for Forest Dunes is too high and $200+ for The Falls is also high).  There have been some really interesting concepts of late.

Also, I have a hunch that many of you may NOT like it, but I still confess to really liking Troon North Pinacle.  What do you guys think of it?

I loved Pinnacle; one of the great mysteries of life to me is exactly why Monument gets so much more recognition than Pinnacle.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Another opinion:

Weiskopf has built courses that are consistently better than average, but are not ever truly thrilling. They are often beautiful.  

Take the short potentially driveable par 4 that he seems to have always put in one per nine.  None of them are really great that I have seen: rewarding, satisfying thrilling holes one ho9pes for in a driveable par 4. (See Pac Dunes, Applebrook, Four Streams or Old Memorial and say Easthampton to name a few modern ones)

I always try to play them (pre or post partners), but I never come away truly satisfied as they are just a little too "clean" and politically correct for me.  They just don't have that extra oooopmph that makes for great architecture.

Maybe he should take more chances. Risking failure probably brings out the best in anyone.

Willie-

  How would you compare his work to say, Gary Player designs?  From your description above, that being "clean", "politically correct", is this an appropriate comparison?

[Jay Flemma]

To Gerry and AG:

I haven't played any of his private designs yet, but hope to soon...I hear marvelous things about Troon CC.  I especially like 5-6, 10-11 and the finish.

Also, I noticed something else...doesn't tom give us some of the best (as in most severe) false front greens?  I love severe false fronts...one of my favorite design tricks.

I LIKE my false fronts to be vicious...as in putt too hard from downhill and end up THIRTY yards back down the fairway vicious.

Like number 1 at Royal New Kent vicious!  There ya go...

[Yancey_Beamer]

Lahontan is quite amazing. One of my favorites.

[redanman]

Sir Dougie

A good placement for Mr Weiskopf to me is a half-step above Hurdzan & Frye, the poster boys for politically correct and non-descript.  

I continually hold out hope for these fellows and must admit I've not played either "Devil's" in ON nor Calusa Pines often proffered to me as their "best work".  Recently I played what I thought was their most daring and interesting in my personal experience so far "Shelter Harbour" in my favorite state - RI.

Weiskopf's teams are far better than Player's teams.