England golf

[Larry_Keltto]

Shhhh, keep it quiet about golf in England. I love the fact that, even at the height of the season, you don't see busloads of Americans rolling into the parking lots at the English courses.

That's one reason why I decided to pursue an international membership at an English course (Deal).

Wales is another destination that we Americans haven't overrun.

[David_Tepper]

Mike McGuire -

There is a TON of golf in and around London. Most of it is within a 30-45 miles radius west and south of London. Green fees are stiff, but certainly worth paying (at least once).

For starters, there is Sunningdale (36 holes), Walton Heath (36 holes), Berkshire (36 holes) and Wentworth (36 holes). Then there is The Addington, New Zealand and St. George's Hill, among many others.

Several of these courses have been written up/profiled on this site. Check it out.

DT  

[Lloyd_Cole]

Ireland is wonderful and I'm proud to represent Connemara on my travels, but Ganton, in Yorkshire, is the most hospitable club I've visited. I was alone, knew no-one, a single at the weekend, with a local lad caddying. The first day I reached the halfway house - which is actually a three quarters-way house - and asked to buy tea and biscuits (in USA, read cookies). The lady working told me that there was a match on and not to bother paying, she would just add it to the club bill!! The second day I caught up with the matches ahead of me at this same spot and a local approached, welcomed me, he knew I was a stranger, and asked me what I'd like to drink - Ginger beer maybe? Then he told me that I'd be waiting on every shot for the next hour or so, and they couldn't let me through as they were playing another match against Ilkley, so I should cut back this way and I'd be back at the 12th which should give them time to get away, and I could play at my own pace. Stuff of dreams really. Not to mention that it is an all world course that has held every major English event save the Open.

BTW - should you decide to play in Yorkshire - do not stay in Scarborough - the seaside resort nearest to Ganton. Trust me, I did!  Leeds is a very cosmopolitan town these day - great food, some fabulous hotels if you want to splurge and probably an hour from all the courses you'd want to play.

[Pete Lavallee]

Truely good points made by one and all. I think the natural progresion for Americans is to want to visit Scotland, Ireland, England and then finally Wales. I know it was Scotland that first drew me over and then Ireland beckoned a return to the links; I wasn't disappointed by either. Its the concentration of pure links courses that make it such an attractive trip for Americans. I'm embarassed to say that I was married to an English girl for 20 years before I took her golfing in her homeland; I should be flogged for that. We made a 3 week visit 2 years ago and played Woking, The Addington, West Sussex, Shanklin Sandown, Ilse of Purbeck, St Enodoc, Westward Ho!, Saunton (East and West), and finally Royal Ashdown Forest; truely magical. A wonderful mixture of links and heathland courses where we were welcomed at every venue. The only bad news is that we weren't paired with anyone as you must play these courses after the "Members time", probably around 9:30 or 10:00; you really need some playing partners to help slow you down a little so you can take it all in. Also, RAF is the only top notch course that allowed weekend play by unintroduced guests. The highest we paid for the priviledge was 60 pounds and many fees included lunch after the round. I feel that the biggest influence in being able to plan such a trip trip to England is the information provided here in the Course Profiles and The Confidential Guide. Many thanks to both Ran and Tom for opening my eyes to the absolute wealth of golf in England. On to Wales next!

[Dave Bourgeois]

It could be marketing as well.  I don't often see adds for golf in England, but always see tours to Scotland, Ireland, and to a lesser extent Wales.  I'm sure this is quite obvious as I type this.  

Lloyd's post gave me the feeling that I need to get to the UK pronto.  I can't imagine anything like this ever  happening in the US.  Really, that story made my day.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The philosophy at many of England's top clubs is to charge the visitor a lot, so that their numbers are few, but to ensure that they have a really good experience.  It applies at Ganton and Alwoodley to my knowledge, and some of the dearer courses around where I live such as Wilmslow and Prestbury.  Delamere Forest is not so expensive, but visitors are made to feel really welcome.

[Lloyd_Cole]

It could be marketing as well.  I don't often see adds for golf in England, but always see tours to Scotland, Ireland, and to a lesser extent Wales.  I'm sure this is quite obvious as I type this.  

Lloyd's post gave me the feeling that I need to get to the UK pronto.  I can't imagine anything like this ever  happening in the US.  Really, that story made my day.

Dave, over the last 10 or 12 years I've had rotten luck in almost all areas, except in my golfing travels. The Australian hospitality is another story and on a par with Ganton, easily. But most unexpected was at Hilton Head a few years ago. I'm sure this story is the exception that proves the rule, but nevertheless.. I was down there alone to play Harbour Town, where I stayed.. Sea Pines is it called? anyway I'm getting a cab back from dinner and talking to the driver I asked if he knew anyway a complete nobody might be able to play Long Cove. Later that evening I get a call in my cabin from a doctor who is a member. They need a 4th for a match in the morning.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Lloyd, another great story.  I spend a week on HHI every summer and have found the locals to be quite hospitible although I haven't received any invites like that (nor have I asked).

Sorry for the quick Hijack.....How would you compare Harbor Town to Long Cove?  

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd, another great story.  I spend a week on HHI every summer and have found the locals to be quite hospitible although I haven't received any invites like that (nor have I asked).

Sorry for the quick Hijack.....How would you compare Harbor Town to Long Cove?  

I think the best comparison would be that Harbour Town was built to be a championship course and Long Cove a members club. And the tees my group were playing were pretty far forward. So it was a more forgiving experience, certainly from the tee. My only distinct hole memory is of one with a short blind second shot - dell type of hole that was just charming. Dye's idea (since abandoned, or cut back, I hear) of faking contour with different grass hues was quite beatiful and LC looked like a waterclour next to HT which was more defined, like an oil painting.

[Doug Siebert]

The philosophy at many of England's top clubs is to charge the visitor a lot, so that their numbers are few, but to ensure that they have a really good experience.  It applies at Ganton and Alwoodley to my knowledge, and some of the dearer courses around where I live such as Wilmslow and Prestbury.  Delamere Forest is not so expensive, but visitors are made to feel really welcome.

What's "a lot"?  We already pay the freight at TOC which isn't chump change, and Old Head which is definitely not chump change.  Is it more than those places, or just more than you feel those places are worth?

I guess its all relative since these are places in your backyard.  I don't complain about paying a lot to play places in the UK because they offer experiences I can't get in the states (well, other than maybe a select few places, most of which I have no access to)  Plus I'm already paying a lot to get over there, so spending an extra one or two hundred dollars per day to play places I want to play rather than looking for bargains isn't necessarily a bad idea.

But if they built a Sand Hills wanna-be in the sand hills regions of Iowa (yes, there are a few here too) and made it public but charged $200 I'd think that was extreme compared to the other courses out here.  But someone who was already travelling here from one of the coast wouldn't think twice about it.  Somehow its harder to spend big money on green fees when I'm close to home, or maybe its just me!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Doug,

Here are some green fees to chew over:

London Area:
Wentworth West Course (minimum 20 in party) £210
Sunningdale Old £165
Stoke Park £125
St George's Hill £90-£120
Royal Ashdown Forest (winter rate) £50-£70
Beaconsfield £50-£60
Liphook £44-£55

Ayrshire Coast:
Royal Troon £210
Turnberry £125 Ailsa Course or £180 both courses on the same day.
Western Gailes £100
Kilmarnock Barassie £65

Yorkshire:
Alwoodley £70
Lindrick £65 (winter rate £35)
Moortown £65 a round, £75 the day.

[Doug Siebert]

Mark,

Those really don't seem out of line to me, especially when you compare them to the current rates you list for Troon and Turnberry.  I haven't played any of the courses you list in the UK, but I'm at least vaguely familar with half of them from reading about them in GCA or elsewhere, and based on reputation alone I'd have no real complaints about what they ask at Sunningdale Old, St. George's, Royal Ashdown Forest, or Alwoody.  And heck, Moortown even has an all-day rate just like the some of the cow pasture courses around here!  Granted, here that all day rate is usually $10-$15, but I'm guessing Moortown is probably a better course

[Mark_Rowlinson]

To put the fees into perspective here are some others in the Leeds area, courses a visitor (not an architecture freak, necessarily) might consider in the same list as Alwoodley and Moortown:

Pannal £45 round/£55 day
Harrogate £35/£40 (£17.50/£20 in winter - very good value)
York £36/£50
Fulford £50/£65
Bingley St Ives £26/£30
Otley £32/£38
Shipley £37 (day)
Sand Moor £40/£50
Oakdale £39/£50

In this context Alwwodley and Moortown are just that little bit dearer than, say, Fulford or Pannal and substantially dearer than most of the rest.

[Brent Hutto]

Mark,

Would you say that the MacKenzie courses can charge higher visitors fees because the demand from overseas visitors or from MacKenzie-seeking UK visitors or both? Or is there some way in which they're nicer courses than the others separate from the MacKenzie connection?

Let me put it another way. Are there really enough people (outside our little treehouse here) to drive up visitor fees by  visiting Alwoodley as a pilgrammage to the great man's first course?

[EDIT] The reason I ask is that outside of members of this forum I've yet to meet an American who has heard the name "Alwoodley" prior to my saying it.

[TEPaul]

Maybe golf green fees are beginning to far outstrip general inflation. But I guess it will continue to do that as long as not enough people put their foot down.

You want to talk about an example of ridiculous inflation? My sister in law just came back from the Cayman Islands where she stayed in one of the fancy hotels down there. She said she ordered a regular house glass of wine. You know what they charged her for it? $24 Goddamn dollars. Even if I was Bill Gates and a hotel tried to charge me that for a simple glass of wine I'd tell them to take their glass of wine and shove it where the sun don't shine!  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Brent,

No, I don't think the MacKenzie ancestry puts the fees up, because there are not that many visitors.  There are plenty of other MacKenzie courses where the green fee is peanuts - Reddish Vale for one, Cavendish for another.  As my recent survey showed, there are very few people in this country who have even heard of MacKenzie, other than to associate him with a two-level green.  They have been having quite a struggle to persuade the authorities in Leeds that a plaque should be put up on MacKenzie's old house saying that he lived there.  Moortown sells itself on having been a Ryder Cup venue and having been host to various European Tour events in the past, even though today's course is substantially different.  Alwoodley really don't want visitors, the members want to be able to turn up any time and play without waiting, but they have moved into the 21st Century and are aware that they need to have a very different publicperception than the snooty, aloof one they used to have.  The members are mostly Yorkshiremen and Yorkshiremen don't like parting with silly money.  They want to keep their membership fees down, so allowing a certain number of visitors is a good thing, especially as they will use the excellent facilities of the new clubhouse with its superior eating and drinking.  While many of the members of Alwoodley are aware that theirs is a MacKenzie course, they are unaware of just how important it is - the very first of an extraordinarily influential raft of designs.  There is absolutely no interest from the general membership, for instance, of trying to restore the bunkers to MacKenzie's style or the greens to MacKenzie's size.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Out of curiosity I've pulled out the green fees being charged in 2000:

Alwoodley £50
Moortown £45
Harrogate £30
Pannal £40
Otley £26
Oakdale - not given
Shipley £27
Sand Moor £32
York £25
Fulford £35
Bingley St Ives £24

I'm not sure if this proves anything as I think the real explosion in our green fees came during the 1990s.