Rowlinson's Test: 1 -18, 18 different architects

[Ian Andrew]

On the previous thread about The World Atlas of Golf's Top 18, Mark Rowlinson had asked "how would it work out with 1 through 18, 18 different architects, and a balanced 18 holes.

Well it was hard and I must admit there are a couple of holes that I'm still not sure of but overall I like the list. I will note that I stuck with only courses that I have seen, and was pretty particular to not repeat an architect (this involved RCD's history book regarding Morris)

I found it interesting how I did not have a Ross (my lack of experience and knowledge combined with no hole that truly stood out) or Pete Dye hole (he lost out to better candidates, but again I don't think I've seen enough).

See what you think, then produce a better list. I look forward to Tom Doak's list with the amount of courses he has visited.

The list:

1st Garden City - Travis
2nd Pine Valley - Crump
3rd Royal County Down – George Coombe
4th Banff Springs - Thompson
5th Merion (East) - Wilson
6th The Creek Club - Raynor
7th San Francisco GC - Tillinghaust
8th Crystal Downs - MacKenzie/Maxwell par 5
9th Friar's Head - Coore and Crenshaw

10th Riviera - George Thomas
11th St. Andrew’s – Nature/Robertson
12th Sunningdale - (old) Park/Colt
13th Gleneagles (Kings) - Braid
14th Royal Dornock - Morris
15th North Berwick - Strath
16th Shinnecock - Flynn
17th The National Golf Links of America – C.B. MacDonald
18th Pebble Beach – Egan

Par 71

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

That is one of the best lists I've ever seen; if you'd written it a year ago I would have helped convince Mark Rowlinson to replace Pat Ward-Thomas' list in the front of The World Atlas of Golf.  

You managed to avoid a lot of the stereotype picks, and yet pick a bunch of holes which I think are world-class.  The only one I'd quibble with is the 12th at Sunningdale, about which I don't understand all the fuss ... but in general I think number 12 is more lacking for good candidates than any other hole.

This has the potential to devolve into a thread about accreditation; I'd never heard of George Coombe before!  Maybe you could include the 4th at Bethpage (Burbeck) and really stir things up.

However, since I know you're dying to include a Travis hole, I am obliged to point out that the right-hand alternate fairway on the first at Garden City Golf Club was added by A.W. Tillinghast prior to the 1936 US Amateur.  So, you might need a new seventh hole.  And The Creek is always credited to Macdonald as well as Raynor; I really think having a hole from each of them is cheating.

You could include the 1st at Sand Hills, the 6th at Pacific Dunes, and the 9th at Maidstone to patch up the Raynor problem!

I am jealous that you managed to include one hole I still haven't seen in person, the fourth at Banff.  If I try to produce a competing list, I will be compelled to include a couple that you haven't seen, but I'm not sure I would insist it was a better selection than yours.

[Peter Pallotta]

A (selfish) request to the more seasoned and well-travelled players, writers, architects, etc. among us:

Please keep this thread going!

It promises to pack a lot of information/insights into one neat package.  

I have a long winter to pass, and much to learn about gca, and researching and imagining these ideal 18-holers would be great.

Thanks
P  

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I look forward to your list, I expect it to be much better than mine because you have seen so much more. While I'm reasonably well travelled, the depth required to do this is well beyond my experience.

I think the threes are defendable, and likely the fives are too, but the fours are not. I recognize that. Your right about 12 at Sunningdale is a weak pick and #1 at Garden City was too. Although I would stand by Braid's Brawest, which I expect to be picked apart.

Yes the accreditation question is a real tough nut, and I think I walked the line a little too.

Please give me a Ross, Dye, Simpson and Campbell hole that should be on because I felt that was where I dropped the ball

Toughest choice was to not select the 4th at Seminole because of the 4th at Banff.

[SPDB]

Ian -
A superlative effort. I started a list and I am glad that i chose a nnumber of holes (on the first 6!) the same as you, e.g. Garden City #1, Banff #4 (although I thought about #2, as I wanted to include Lahinch #4).

In any event, great job, you have inspired me to go forward with my list.

-Sean

Great job on Creek #6. It's one of my favorite holes anywhere, yet I always forget it in lists like this.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

12th at Swinley Forest (455 yards par 4) by Colt is a world-class hole.  I wonder if the 4th at Banff is strictly valid, because it was originally the 8th hole and only became the 4th when an additional 9-holer was constructed.  But I'm being very pedantic - an excellent list.  

[Marc Haring]

12th at Swinley Forest (455 yards par 4) by Colt is a world-class hole.  

Yes of course Mark. What a classic and it would keep Colt in the list. Terrific setting, pinched in fairway, open but inclined approach and just about the craziest green on the planet.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Spurred on by your efforts, and particularly the discovery that the 3rd at RCD can be credited to Mr Coombe, I've had a go at an eclectic UK course with 18 different architects.  No doubt I've misattributed a few and probably a number of holes are not solo efforts, so I wait to be corrected.  There's only one post-WWII hole, but I think PM Ross is a good classical architect just a little bit after his time.  I have to say I cannot remember the 9th hole at Pannal - and it may be one of those altered by CA MacKenzie, Alister's brother, but it was the last piece of the jigsaw and it fitted.  I'm not sure about a 3,5,3,5 finish, either.  Feel free to improve on it - it's meant as a shooting gallery.

1.396 4 Ferndown (Harold Hilton)
2.437 4 New Zealand (Tom Simpson)
3.474 4 Royal County Down (George Coombe)
4.127 3 Aldeburgh (JH Taylor)
5.503 5 Liphook (Arthur Croome)
6.224 3 Bamburgh Castle (George Rochester)
7.372 4 Royal Ashdown Forest (Archdeacon Scott)
8.584 5 Alwoodley (Alister MacKenzie)
9.381 4 Pannal (Sandy Herd)

Out 3,498 yards par 36

10.438 4 Little Aston (Harry Vardon)
11.362 4 West Cornwall (Rev Tyack)
12.455 4 Swinley Forest (Harry Colt)
13.464 4 Gleneagles King's (James Braid)
14.376 4 Tadmarton Heath (CK Hutchinson)
15.209 3 Turnberry Ailsa (PM Ross)
16.510 5 Walton Heath Old (Herbert Fowler)
17.185 3 The Addington (JF Abercrombie)
18.540 5 Woodhall Spa Hotchkin (Col Hotchkin)

In 3,539 yards par 36

Total 7,037 yards par 72

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I am surprised most of all by the 17th at The Addington -- I loved that course but I barely remember the hole!  There were several other holes I might have included from it, but the consensus of old experts was the long par-3 13th, which is hard to argue with.

Ian:

That list I referred to earlier was tweaked with the intent of getting geographical diversity; plus, my contract was that I got to be part of the crew for any of the holes I had not seen, so it was my ticket to Durban and Hirono!

I will work on it a bit this weekend and try to get as different a list as I can, but in my heart I would like to use your 8th, 10th, 11th, and 14th at a minimum.

The 11th at Ballybunion [if Simpson had anything to do with it] would be the obvious Simpson choice.  I can't remember for sure if Sir Guy Campbell built the fourth hole or the seventh hole at Rye [some member did the other, as I recall], but either of those would be worthy of a world's best list.

I am not sure which Pete Dye hole should make the list, although I've used the first at Long Cove before.  (I think I had a dream about that hole just last night.)  For Ross there are a lot of possible choices -- anything at Seminole or Pinehurst No. 2, the third at Linville, the seventh at Inverness, the tenth at Highlands, the thirteenth at Salem -- but I might be tempted to include the ninth at Whitinsville, to include a hole from a nine-hole course.

You could also include the 5th at Royal Worlington & Newmarket among the best 18 holes in the world, easily.  But I'm not sure who would get the credit for it.

[Richard Pennell]

Tom - here's a reminder of the 17th at The Addington:



and looking back to the tee (across the 16th green)

[Tom_Doak]

Richard:

Thanks, I really miss that place.  I've still only played there the one time.

I remembered the hole, but had completely forgotten the part about teeing off over the previous green.  One sees it enough in the UK and Ireland that when you are over there for an extended stay you stop noticing such things, whereas in the States that would be a show-stopper.

[wsmorrison]

1.  Aronimink  425/4  D. Ross
2.  Pine Valley  367/4  G. Crump
3.  Deal  505/5  Hunter/Braid
4.  The Old Course  419/4  Nature
5.  Sandwich  420/4  Purves
6.  Ailsa  231/3  M. Ross
7.  Oakmont  486/4  Fownes
8.  Troon 126/3  ?
9.  The Country Club, Brookline  510/5  ?
10. NGLA  460/4  Macdonald
11. Shinnecock Hills  158/3  Flynn
12. Swinley Forest 455/4  Colt
13. Addington 230/3  Abercromby
14. Dornoch  445/4  Morris
15. ANGC  500/5  MacKenzie
16. North Berwick 381/4 Strath
17. TCC, Pepper Pike  387/4  Flynn
18. Sand Hills 465/4  Coore and Crenshaw

I have 2 Flynns...sorry about that.  It isn't an easy exercise trying to get the rhythm, par distribution and different architects.  I'll try to comply after I return from the gym.  Only 39 more pounds to lose!

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

There are three holes in your last four that I would never dream of putting on one of these lists -- and ironically, the one I would consider is the least well known of the four, the one in Cleveland!

[Philip Gawith]

Mark - I think this is the first at Ferndown (tee shot).

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/DSC00967.jpg

Not sure why the link is coming up rather than the photo itself - maybe someone can advise!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom, I agree about The Addington, 13th is a great hole, world class, but I kept getting stymied.  Supposing I went for the par 4 9th at The Addington which is a lovely hole, what could I put in for the 17th?  I kept away from Royal St George's because I wasn't sure how much original Laidlaw Purves remains.  

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I agree with you, I started having some problems with par, yardage, flow and architects and the overall work suffered a bit.  I do love the 17th at TCC, Pepper Pike and am pleased you didn't find it too much of a stretch to include. I think I boxed myself in with my early picks and got in trouble early.  I only chose courses I have been to so that limitation was constraining as well.

I didn't want to include the 15th at ANGC as it isn't in the top decile of par 5s but couldn't find a par 5 in that spot...guess I should have stuck with a par 4 and not worry about par distribution.  But I wanted a MacKenzie and was trying to fit a par 5 in that spot.  Since I really wanted the 13th at Addington in there and compromised on the 15th.  I think there are better 18th holes out there but the ones I were considering had other architects represented and the house of cards started coming down.  

It is a much tougher exercise than I realized at first so can I be graded on a curve?  This exercise makes me realize just how difficult routing a course can be.  Unless you are Matt Ward where everything comes so easily.  It is usually full of shyte, is deprecating to others and is self-aggrandizing, but it does come easily.

[Marc Haring]

Philip

I happened to have a picture of Ferndown #1. It's a very nice down hiller to start with. No heroics, just a deep breath and smash it down there as close to the bunkers as you can.

[Marc Haring]

Mark.

I do like the first at Birkdale. I don't know that you can entirely credit it to Hawtree in which case it could fit into your list?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I'm afraid it's an exercise in compromise.

Do you list the 18 greatest architects (already entering dangerous waters) and try to figure out a list of 18 holes from their 3 million potential holes?  Do you start by slotting in a few undoubted classics (16th at CPC, 17th TOC....)? This is already out of hand.  

My mistake, I think, was to list about 25 architects, but then to write in, first, the 12th at Swinley Forest.  There is no denying that it is a great, world-class hole.  But Colt was such a wizard that I could have found a great hole from him for any hole number.  I also put in early on the 3rd at RCD - one my favourite holes in golf, but as I don't know the ancestry of any of the other holes at RCD it was a bit of a desperate attempt.  Already the plot was thickening and I was losing room to negotiate.  

I also had a problem with consortia - I was far from sure who had done what within the Fowler/Simpson set up or the Colt/Alison/MacKenzie team (while it survived).

I'd love to have incorporated something from Royal Worlington or Royal West Norfolk but I'm not sure who designed what.  Same with Royal St George's and, indeed, all the Open courses other than Portrush, which brings me back to having started with the 12th at Swinley.  Should I have started with one of a great architect's great holes or.....

Let's go back to the original thread.

[Ian Andrew]

Wayne,

It is very hard, here are the flaws in my own list.

1st Garden City - Travis that damned Doak caught me - I had to have a Travis - personality flaw I guess !
2nd Pine Valley - Crump
3rd Royal County Down – George Coombe if I had to choose between this and Foxy, all would come apart - so I went looking to see who did the 3rd - it does not appear to be Morris - but I'll be honest I'm not certain 100% certain even after the read - I have the club history
4th Banff Springs - Thompson I wanted 4 at Seminole - had to have a Thompson hole - and Banff was the most obvious - I assumed I must use the current hole number to be fair
5th Merion (East) - Wilson
6th The Creek Club - Raynor
7th San Francisco GC - Tillinghaust
8th Crystal Downs - MacKenzie/Maxwell par 5 the choices here are endless - but I wanted the best par five I knew
9th Friar's Head - Coore and Crenshaw

10th Riviera - George Thomas
11th St. Andrew’s – Nature/Robertson
12th Sunningdale - (old) Park/Colt by default - my last pick and Colt was not on the list - that would be a travesty
13th Gleneagles (Kings) - Braid
14th Royal Dornock - Morris
15th North Berwick - Strath
16th Shinnecock - Flynn tough not to have 16 at Cypress - but the 8th at Crystal is a better hole to me
17th The National Golf Links of America – C.B. MacDonald this would go if The 6th is Raynor/ MacDonald - there are other options like the 17th at Seminole - another favourite hole
18th Pebble Beach – Egan

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Marc,

The Hawtree family ought to be there in any reckoning of British architecture.  My problem was in knowing exactly who had done what, and I suppose I'm looking for original architecture, not an upgrade.  That's the big problem with someone such as Braid - were his alterations to Carnoustie more significant than his work at Gleneagles?  Possibly so.  It's a minefield.  

Mark.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ian,

Thank you for your candour.  

We'll get a world list yet!

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

This is a very difficult but enjoyable exercise.  Thanks!

Ian,

I can't believe I didn't include the 5th at Merion, which may be my alltime favorite par 4.  Although I really like the 5th at Sandwich, I give the nod to Merion.  I'm a knucklehead!  

As for your 17th, I can think of a lot of 17th holes I regard higher than the one at NGLA.  Just in Flynn's portfolio alone, the 17th at Pepper Pike (obviously it is on my list) Kittansett, Indian Creek, at Huntingdon Valley and Philadelphia Country.  But I know you're in the majority and I'm decidedly in the minority  

Yours is an excellent list.  If you, Tom and Mark don't mind,  given my first 14 holes and Tom correctly pointing out that 3 of the last 4 are a bit lame, how would you conclude the exercise?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's all boiling down to who really did what.  We have to be absolutely certain of exactly who did the work on a particular hole, and that is why so many great holes fall down.  We simply don't what was altered by whom.  It is clearly an issue with people such as Morris and Park.  How much survives untouched?  

[Tony_Chapman]

How would you do this if you weren't yet 30, lived in Nebraska, and your golfing knowledge was limited. I had a dickens of a time just figuring if I had played courses with 18 different architects!!

But, here's my best effort. If I can figure out how to tweak it I will. What a fun exercise this was.

#1 -- Sand Hills (Coore and Crenshaw), Mullen NE (5)
#2 -- Pinehurst #7 (Rees Jones), Pinehurst NC (remember, limited golfing knowledge   ) (4)
#3 -- Chaska Town Course (Art Hills), Chaska MN (4)
#4 -- Prairie Dunes (Perry Maxwell), Hutchison KS (3)
#5 -- Pinehurst #2 (Donald Ross), Pinehurst NC (4)
#6 -- York Country Club (Unknown), York NE (surely everyone should have their 'home course' on the list) (3)
#7 -- Firethorn GC (Pete Dye), Lincoln NE (4)
#8 -- Pinehurst #8 (Tom Fazio), Pinehurst NC (see #2) (3)
#9 -- Charleston City Course (Raynor), Charleston SC (4)
OUT -- 35

#10 -- Legacy Golf Links (Jack Nicklaus II), Aberdeen NC (4)
#11 -- Jackrabbit Run GC (Frank Hummel), Grand Island NE (3)
#12 -- Arbor Links (Arnold Palmer), Nebraska City NE (4)
#13 -- Tobacco Road (Mike Strantz), Sanford NC (5)
#14 -- Woodland Hills (Jeff Brauer), Eagle NE (4)
#15 -- Wild Horse (Bunker Hill), Gothenburg NE (4)
#16 -- Pasatiempo (MacKenzie), Santa Cruz CA (4)
#17 -- San Juan Oaks (Gene Bates), Hollister CA (4)
#18 -- Pebble Beach (Chandler Egan), Pebble Beach CA (5)
IN -- 37
TOTAL -- 72