News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ed Tilley

England golf
« on: January 11, 2006, 09:50:30 AM »
In the last Golf World (UK) rankings of the courses of Britain and Ireland, over half of the top 100 courses were in England. England had twice the number of courses listed as both Scotland and Ireland. In addition, the variety of courses in England is much greater from top class links (Birkdale, Royal St. Georges, Lytham, Hoylake, Saunton, Rye, Silloth......) to magnificent heathland courses (Sunningdale, Woodhall Spa, Wentwoth, West Sussex, Swinley Forest, St. Georges Hill), parkland, moorland etc.. It seems obvious to me that England is the best country for golf in Europe and (very) arguably, given the relative size of England to the US, the world.

Despite this I frequently see, even on this site, people saying that they are coming over 'to Scotland or Ireland'. Whilst I love golf in Scotland and Ireland (and Wales), I think the situation is a bit odd. Am I alone in thinking that our American friends are missing something?

Dan King

Re:England golf
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 09:59:23 AM »
While I agree the variety is greater in England, Americans come to Scotland and Ireland because they have what we don't: Links golf. While there is huge chunks of England I haven't been to, my experience is that Scotland and Irealand have much better links courses than England.

Perhaps I need to give England more time one of these days.

Then again, Scotland and Ireland never invaded. You still have some answering to do for that whole War of 1812.

Dan King
Quote
There is no country where the golfers are more keen or more hospitable than in Ireland, and the friendliness with which the inhabitants welcome their guest in only equalled by the earnestness with which the endeavour, and very often successfully, to beat them.
 --Bernard Darwin (The Golf Courses of the British Isles)

Peter Pallotta

Re:England golf
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 10:05:34 AM »
Ed,
good and interesting post.

I'm just guessing, but might it have to do with Scotland and Ireland having a greater percentage of PUBLIC courses?

Can I regular guy even get on most of those great English courses you mention?

Of course, there's also the pull of St. Andrews: if someone was taking a once in a lifetime golf excursion to the UK, most would go there first.

Finally, London is a great, great city - but man is it expensive!

Peter




Evan_Green

Re:England golf
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2006, 10:10:20 AM »
Peter-

Anyone can get on the vast majority of the English courses with only a few exceptions regardless of whether they are private or public. You just have to shell out $$$ and plan ahead. It's the same in Scotland and Ireland.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 10:10:53 AM by Evan_Green »

Ed Tilley

Re:England golf
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2006, 10:13:48 AM »
Dan,

You've obviously never spoken with a Scotsman about the 'British' empire. If you are ever unfortunate to experience it you would realise that a significant proportion of British forces was made up of Scottish, Welsh, and even Irish troops. If you believed your average Scotsman, it wasn't a British Empire at all.

Don't know much about 1812 - we lost so they don't tend to teach that in England. 1805 (Trafalgar) and 1815 (Waterloo) seem to get taught though. Funny that.

Ed Tilley

Re:England golf
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2006, 10:16:01 AM »
Peter,

As Evan says the vast majority of courses in England are accessible to all. Of the courses I mentioned only Rye and Swinley Forest are strictly private.

Ed

Tony_Muldoon

Re:England golf
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 10:27:09 AM »
Welcome to the Madhouse Ed.

Interesting question. I can understand (sort of ) why the vast majority of US golfers head for Scotland and Ireland (and after all didn't we Celts provide more émigré’s).

However on this site Mark Rowlinson, Paul Turner and yes the beloved Ran Morrisett do a fantastic job for the English tourist board. So why not guys?

This is the numerical total of courses reviewed by Ran in the 'Courses by Country'.

18 England (8 links)
12 Scotland
7 Ireland (North and South)
1 Wales.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 10:46:07 AM by Tony Muldoon »
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

David_Tepper

Re:England golf
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2006, 10:31:38 AM »
Ed -

You raise a very valid point. England IS overlooked as a golf destination by too many visiting Americans.

For links golf, the stretch of coastline from Liverpool to Lytham/St. Annes could be the strongest stretch of links golf in the world: Hoylake, West Lancs, Formby, Southport Ainsdale, Birkdale, Hillside, Hesketh, Lytham St. Annes, etc.

Then in Devon/Cornwall, you have St. Endoc, Trevose, Saunton, Westward Ho!, West Cornwall, etc. In the southeast, there is Sandwich, Deal, Rye, etc.

Add those to the great English heathland courses (Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Berkshire, Wentworth, et. al) and there is a true bounty of golf to choose from in England.

I have been fortunate enough to play golf in Scotland, England and Ireland. The golf in England is as good, if not better than the other two. The one thing that I find missing from the "golf tourist experience" in England is the sense of remoteness and isolation (the feeling that you have "gotten away from it all") that you often find in Ireland and Scotland. My guess is the population density of England is way, way greater than the other two. The traffic on the roads is greater and it is just not quite as relaxing.

For what it is worth, I think Americans prefer visiting Scotland and Ireland because it is more different from the US than England.

DT


Tony_Muldoon

Re:England golf
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2006, 10:49:34 AM »
The one thing that I find missing from the "golf tourist experience" in England is the sense of remoteness and isolation (the feeling that you have "gotten away from it all") that you often find in Ireland and Scotland.
DT



David
Next time try Brancaster, Hunstanton, Seacroft and Woodhall.

Something for everyone?

2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

John_Cullum

Re:England golf
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2006, 10:55:56 AM »
Don't know much about 1812 - we lost so they don't tend to teach that in England.

Did you? The British captured and burned Washington. 1812 is the most misunderstood war in history.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Ed Tilley

Re:England golf
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2006, 11:04:54 AM »
The one thing that I find missing from the "golf tourist experience" in England is the sense of remoteness and isolation (the feeling that you have "gotten away from it all") that you often find in Ireland and Scotland.
DT



David
Next time try Brancaster, Hunstanton, Seacroft and Woodhall.

Something for everyone?



Or Silloth, St. Enodoc, Saunton, and Rye

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:England golf
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2006, 11:07:24 AM »
I agree with Ed in many ways. I am looking forward to the GCA Ryder Cup this fall. It will be a chance to play in the Northwest part of England. I am finding the lack of tourist in England to be a draw over the tour buses I am running into in Scotland and Ireland.

Paul_Turner

Re:England golf
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2006, 11:11:07 AM »
If you prefer beer to whisk(e)y then go to England.  There are some here who think Belhaven's Best is a top British pint ::)
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom Huckaby

Re:England golf
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2006, 11:16:01 AM »
Sean - that is all great stuff - just be careful if in America you ever ask to "join a throw-up", especially while sitting at a bar.

Throw-up means vomit over here.

 ;D

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re:England golf
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2006, 11:44:17 AM »
England is certainly overlooked by the mass of american tourist golfers, but that should not be taken as a critisism, more as factor that St Andrews, Troon, Carnoustie, turnberry and Dornoch are rather hard to resist when flying from the other side of the pond.

However, should a second trip be planned it would be sinful to not experience the wonders of Woodhall Spa, Notts, Formby, Hillside, Birkdale, Berkshire, St Geoerges Hill...and so many other wonderful courses on the other side of Hadrians Wall.

Tony_Muldoon

Re:England golf
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2006, 12:01:20 PM »
Sean - that is all great stuff - just be careful if in America you ever ask to "join a throw-up", especially while sitting at a bar.

Throw-up means vomit over here.

 ;D

Tom it does over here too (any news on your trip?).  How have you missed that Sean is an expert in all kinds of english?


"Two great nations divided by a common tongue" GB Shaw
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Tom Huckaby

Re:England golf
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2006, 12:18:04 PM »
Tony - thanks - Messrs. Arble and Shaw remain witty and wise.

Trips for me?  Oh man, was I talking UK at one point?  Well I dream a lot.  But I have no concrete plans.  Gosh I'd LOVE to do the GCA Ryder Cup, but on the family front 2006 appears to be a year of lying low.

 :'(

David_Tepper

Re:England golf
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2006, 12:19:20 PM »
Ed Tilley -

I have played St. Endoc & Trevose. I REALLY liked St. Endoc and being there is probably the closest I have come to capturing that "getting away from it all feeling" in England. Yet, even in Cornwall, there is far more hustle & bustle than I have experienced in much of Ireland or the Scottish Highlands.

As I said in my prior post, if think the golf in England is as good or better than what is available in Scotland or Ireland. I think for many Americans, visiting England is not perceived as being quite the "exotic" cultural experience as visiting the other two.

PS - If you don't know, I am the guy who lives in San Francisco and bought a vacation home in Dornoch 20 months ago. At the very least, I have put my (and my wife's) money where my mouth is!

DT

 

Jack_Marr

Re:England golf
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 12:27:54 PM »
Just comparing Scotland and England - I think Scotland stirs more romantic notions, in the poetic sense.

I don't know the answer to this, but getting back to the amount of top ranked courses in England... Do the percentages change much when you get to the top 20 or 30? Maybe this would be a factor if it does.

Anyway, I have no real opinion on the subject, as I don't know for sure whrere the best golf is.

One other note, this time about Ireland - Non-members can pay a greenfee in every single golf course here. I hope this doesn't change, but it probably will.

And, finally, while Ireland gets stick from different quarters about its neutrality during the wars, most people don't now that there was a higher percentage of volunteer soldiers from neutral Ireland than any other country in these islands.
John Marr(inan)

Ed Tilley

Re:England golf
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 12:33:04 PM »
David,

St. Enodoc is one of my favourite courses. Not in terms of quality of test / design but in terms of fun. It's the most enjoyable course I've played. An English version (and better) of Cruden Bay. Nearby Perranporth is really enjoyable too.

You're a lucky man to have a house in Dornoch - I've been up twice and will definitely be back. I have very hazy recollections of a night in the Eagle hotel. That place really is remote. Dornoch is a lovely town - sandstone houses rather than the granite that seems to be everywhere in the north of Scotland. Almost like an English Cotswold village.

Ed

Marty Bonnar

Re:England golf
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2006, 12:39:16 PM »
It doesn't really matter if you decide on Scotland, England, Ireland or Wales. It appears (in today's Scotsman) the true home of Golf is NOW:

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=46872006

It was only a matter of time, wasn't it! (They certainly seem to have made every piece of golf equipment I have bought recently anyway!)

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tony_Muldoon

Re:England golf
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2006, 01:58:43 PM »
It doesn't really matter if you decide on Scotland, England, Ireland or Wales. It appears (in today's Scotsman) the true home of Golf is NOW:

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=46872006

It was only a matter of time, wasn't it! (They certainly seem to have made every piece of golf equipment I have bought recently anyway!)

FBD.

Look out for CB MacDonald's "Golf, Scotland's Gift" going cheap on ebay!
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Mark_Rowlinson

Re:England golf
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2006, 02:39:08 PM »
The earliest golf was played by a caveman, knocking a stone along a track with a stick.  Unfortunately he had not been taught to write so only I know this fact, being old enough to have witnessed it.

What about the Romans, didn't they play Paganica or something? - I may have got the name wrong.

Marty Bonnar

Re:England golf
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2006, 02:57:05 PM »
with apologies to the Pythons...

Romans? ROMANS?
Reg: Yeah, all right Stan, don't delay with the point. And what have they ever given us in return?
Revolutionary I: The aqueduct?
Reg: What?
Revolutionary I: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh. Yeah, yeah, they did give us that, ah, that's true, yeah.
Revolutionary II: And the sanitation.
Loretta: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: Yeah, all right, I'll grant you the aqueduct and sanitation, the two things the Romans have done.
Matthias: And the roads.
Reg: Oh, yeah, obviously the roads. I mean the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the
aqueduct, and the roads...
Revolutionary III: Irrigation.
Revolutionary I: Medicine.
Revolutionary IV: Education.
Reg: Yeah, yeah, all right, fair enough.
Revolutionary V: And the wine.
All revolutionaries except Reg: Oh, yeah! Right!
Rogers: Yeah! Yeah, that's something we'd really miss Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.
Revolutionary VI: Public bathes.
Loretta: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.
Rogers: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it; they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
All revolutionaries except Reg: Hahaha...all right...
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water
system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Revolutionary I: Brought Golf?
Reg: Oh, Golf! Shut up!


FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike McGuire

Re:England golf
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2006, 07:11:12 PM »
What's around London? I was thinking of vistiting with my wife this summer. I was hoping to leave her the credit card and escape for a couple rounds.

Tags: