A radical idea whose time has come ?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Whenever referring to firm and fast conditions I always make the distinciton between greens and "through the green". if you don't do that too many people seem to think you are only referring to the greens.

The term "firm and fast" probably is a bit redundant when referring to "through the green" because frankly if "through the green" is firm the ball will definitely bounce and roll-out substantially.

However, greens certainly can be fast and soft, but fairways can't really be that.

The big obstacle to firm fairways and approaches certainly is too much irrigation water but too much thatch is just as deleterious to firm and fast conditions "through the green", maybe even more than irrigation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'm familiar with a club that tries to keep its greens very firm and fast, the problem is that some of the approaches tend to be soft.

Soil and the location of irrigation heads contribute to this problem.

I think you're right, you have to remind memberships and reinforce the concept that firm and fast MUST apply to the greens and through the green.

Joe, Don and Cabell,

I've never seen a course that had soft yet fast fairways as the daily standard.

How is this accomplished on a regular basis ?

[ForkaB]

Pat

How do top US courses (including PGAT venues) manage to consistently produce soft but fast greens?

Since they do so, why should you not understand the concept of soft but fast fairways?

Your problem probably is that you fail to grasp the fact that one normallly does not putt on shots from a fairway.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I'm familiar with a club that tries to keep its greens very firm and fast, the problem is that some of the approaches tend to be soft."

Patrick:

That kind of thing is the very opposite of the Ideal Maintenance Meld which is supposed to serve the purpose of taking available options and making them function better (other than the total reliability of aerial approach shots) so that they can be in a form of equilibrium or balance in the context of decision making.

But creating very firm greens and soft approaches is a set-up that only serves the purpose of basically nixxing all options.

Believe it or not that kind of thing is not just the result of a thoughtless club green committee or whatever, as Arnold Palmer et al at Bay Hill actually did that not once but TWICE. The first time he apologized to the players and then a couple of years later he went and did it again.

[TEPaul]

"I've never seen a course that had soft yet fast fairways as the daily standard.
How is this accomplished on a regular basis?"

Patrick:

Come on man, just use a bit of good old fashioned common sense.

Read my example of Mystic Rock's #10 fairway in post #18.

That course's fairways were not soft but if they were soft they are cut so close (so low) that on a real contoured fairway such as #10 you could still place a ball on the right side and it would filter all the way across the fairway to the bowl on the left side.

We're talking about a lack of friction here Pal---a lack of resistence. Friction or resistence slows down the roll of the golf ball. A lack of surface friction or surface resistance promotes the roll of the golf ball on sloped or contoured surfaces.  

This is not exactly rocket science Pat. Or did you not realize that very low mow heights on such things as putting greens or even fairway (soft or firm) creates a real lack of friction---ie a lack of resistance that promotes a ball's free roll across a sloped or contoured surface? Sometimes we call it the "trickle effect" or "ball creep" It happens all the time these days on fast greens and it can happen on fairways too if they are mowed real close or real short.

On one course where we held a Pa State Championship this year the super even took his rollers and rolled some of the LZs!! That in combination with a real low fairway mow height just created a greater trickle effect just like on putting greens.

We are into the world of physics here Pat. You did realize, didn't you, that physics can apply to a golf ball and a surface too?  

[Tom_Doak]

There are only two instances I know of where a course spoke of stimping fairways.

In the first case it was clearly done just to impress the visitors, and had no effect on how the greenkeeper was maintaining the course.

However, in the other case [on a links course with relatively slow greens], the fairways were stimped in hopes that their speed would be comparable with that of the greens, so running approaches would be accurately judged.

The Stimpmeter is a tool for greenkeepers.  If they want to use it to help them prepare the course, fine.  But no one else needs to know about it ... including the green chairman and the membership.

[TEPaul]

"The Stimpmeter is a tool for greenkeepers.  If they want to use it to help them prepare the course, fine.  But no one else needs to know about it ... including the green chairman and the membership."

TomD:

I couldn't agree more and this is exactly why I can't understand why you don't endorse and promote that gcis.inc process that uses only a playability test to determine the ideal green speed for any golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How do top US courses (including PGAT venues) manage to consistently produce soft but fast greens?

Rich,

First they ring a very small area with an abundance of irrigation heads.

Then, they cut the grass low and/or employ rollers to produce speed.

They also vericut, aerate, topdress and apply an abundance of additives in an attempt to indirectly produce speed.

In short, they specifically prepare a limited area for speed, which due to economic reasons, can't be done to fairways to produce the same speeds.

However, with all of their special preparations and TLC they cannot keep soft greens consistently fast throughout the summer.

Could you name five clubs that have soft greens that are consistently fast during the entire golf season ?

Since they do so, why should you not understand the concept of soft but fast fairways?

See my answer above

Your problem probably is that you fail to grasp the fact that one normallly does not putt on shots from a fairway.

My guest in a recent two day member-guest putts from 80 yards and in.  I prefer an L-Wedge or 4-iron or 6-iron but, when armed with a blade putter will putt from well off the green.   He is uncannily accurate, having watched him perform for 30 + years, I'm used to it, but when others see him do this for the first time, they're astounded and then amazed at the results.

Neil Regan on the other hand is a specialist from 150 and in.

[ForkaB]

Pat

My standard for soft and fast greens is Spyglass.  Balls plug on the green and then the putts roll at 12.  I think a few of the other Peninsular courses play the same.  As most of my gofl over the past 15 years has been on fast and firm courses, I can't give you you're full complement of 5, at least now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Thanks for the example.

Golf courses that sit on an ocean usually benefit from conditions not found on inland golf courses.

Cooler temperatures, wind and the like help present fast and firm playing conditions.

When Pine Valley is putting at 6 during the summer you know its not intentional.

Removing your example of golf courses near the ocean, what inland golf courses have soft greens that are consistantly fast ?

[ForkaB]

Can't think of any, Pat.  But then again, I rarely play golf anywhere that is not within 5 miles of an ocean.

[Bradley Anderson]

I have found that the maintenance practice which has the greatest effect on fast and firm fairways is hollow tine core aeration.

Below the surface of the turf there is a layer of thatch. Thatch is what makes a fairway soft. Even a dry fairway can be springy if it has an inordinately thick layer of thatch below the turf, although it is unlikely that you will encounter a dry fairway on a thick layer of thatch, because when fairways get thatchy you can't allow them to dry out or they will die.

All things being equal, thatch management is the key to fast and firm, and aeration is the best tool for dealing with it.

Excessive layers of thatch come from excessive fertilizer applications in the pursuit of a lush green Augusta-like appearance. But even a moderately fertilized fairway will become thatchy if it is not core aerated annually.

The dirt that is brought up from the aeration is chopped up and brushed back in to the turf, and this acts as a form of topdressing, which dilutes the thatch, and helps it to break down. Also when we bury the thatch with dirt, we may cut tighter without concern of scalping, giving us more roll.

If you aerify in the month of May you can throw some newer improved varieties of bentgrass in the holes and you will improve the drought hardiness and disease resistance of the turf.

Core aeration opens up channels for water movement through the soils, to gives us greater uniformity of moisture control. There are places on our fairways where the percolation rate of the water is, let us say, two inches per hour, compared to a spot ten feet away that is less than one quarter of an inch per hour - all of this in the scope of one sprinkler which covers a 90 foot radius. There are variations in the soils which must be made uniform to achieve effective moisture control, and aeration is the best tool to address this problem.

The caveat is, golfers are generally unhappy when we aerify.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

Thanks so much for that post. That one is printable and I'm putting it in my agronomy file to be produced at the appropriate times.

Good Show;

Any time you guys feel like throwing in some agronomy tips and explanations to support or refute some of the things we talk about playability-wise, please do. They are of great help.

[Sean_A]

Removing your example of golf courses near the ocean, what inland golf courses have soft greens that are consistantly fast ?

Pat

I grew up playing soft and fast greens.  In fact, I can not think of a private course in the Detroit area that did not have near plugging greens rolling at 11ish or more in the height of summer.  I do not know what the standard is anymore.  I have only played one club there in many years and they have become firmer with fairways and greens - though not what I would consider fast & firm.  I never knew what F&F was til I played in GB&I.  To date, I still have not seen a course Stateside that I would label F&F.

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

Sean:

Obviously you've never seen HVGC or even NGLA.

[Sean_A]

Tom P.

Without belabouring the point you are correctomundo.  Perhaps like the song of the prince, my day will come.  I spose my point was more about how rare F&F is in the States (here I qualify and say I have yet to see F&F on a GOOD course in the States).  I can recall a few well placed fellows on this site raving about F&F conditions at Augusta this year.  It looked like anything but same as every year.    In truth, Hoylake was just scratching the surface of F&F compared to clubs without irrigation.  I know many cried foul.  This makes me think the rank and file US club member is not yet ready for mother nature to take its true course.

Ciao

Sean  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Removing your example of golf courses near the ocean, what inland golf courses have soft greens that are consistantly fast ?

I grew up playing soft and fast greens.  In fact, I can not think of a private course in the Detroit area that did not have near plugging greens rolling at 11ish or more in the height of summer.  

I find that hard to believe.

What courses were these and what during what years ?

How do you know they were putting at 11 and more ?
Most people overestimate the pace of the greens.
11 or more is very fast, especially on Donald Ross greens.[/color]

I do not know what the standard is anymore.
I think Mother Nature tends to dictate the standard, but, there's been a clear trend over the last 30 years to speed up the greens, so, if you were putting at greens that were at 11 many, many years ago, one would think that they'd be at 13 today, which, I would find hard to believe.[/color]  

I have only played one club there in many years and they have become firmer with fairways and greens - though not what I would consider fast & firm.  

I never knew what F&F was til I played in GB&I.  
Again, weather can be the primary influence in determining conditions.

It would seem unlikely that any club  in the Washington, D.C. area could play firm and fast during the summer.

Last summer Pine Valley was at 6, when they were playable.[/color]

To date, I still have not seen a course Stateside that I would label F&F.

Didn't you watch the U.S. Open at Shinnecock ?[/color]

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