Grand National on the RTJ Trail

[A.G._Crockett]

I played RTJ Trail courses for the first time Tues. and Wed., playing both the Lake and Links courses at Grand National in Opelika.  Wonderful surprises; both very, very good courses.  I had expected more typical resort/daily fee courses with flat greens, somewhat featureless layouts, minimal bunkering, etc.  These were anything but; in fact, the greens had some of the largest contours I've ever seen, especially on the Lake course.  There were several times that my group stayed an extra 5 minutes  trying various putts on particular greens.  Very, very affordable, very good condition, and generally terrific golf.  

A particular favorite was the 18th on the Links course.  Its a mid-length par four dogleg left, but from the back tees the tee shot has to carry a corner of the lake very precisely.  Too far to the right and you go through the fairway into the pines.  You are left with a short iron into a really remarkable green.  It has 4 levels, and runs about 60 yds. diagonally back to the left, always about 20 yds. deep.  One of the best finishing holes I've seen anywhere.

The only negative would be the walking situation; you are allowed to walk at any time, but there were some very, very long hauls because of the 600 acre lake that the courses wind around.

I'd be interested to hear any comments on either these two courses, or anything else on the Trail and how it compares to these two.

[Andy Doyle]

AG:

I've been over there twice, the first time to play the wonderful par 3 course and Links, the second time to play Links and Lake.

As you were, I was very impressed with both.  I thought Links was more difficult with more elevation changes - maybe it's because I scored better on Lake.  Both times I played, the Bermuda rough was not very deep, but was very difficult to hit out of, very penal.

I also liked Links #18 - great approach shot to an interesting green.  Difficult because of the shallowness of the green.

I thought Links lets you know right out of the gate what it store for you - #1 is a tough, uphill par 4.  I didn't like #2, though - isn't that the par 5 with the big grass bunkers/swales right in the middle of the landing area?  The inclination is to go right of them, but there's not much room.  When you bang a long drive right down the middle, aren't you supposed to be rewarded with a perfect lie and the opportunity to go for the green in two?  

There is another par 5 (I think - #12?) on Links that I really liked - it had a green that was sort of pushed out into the lake.  Very tough approach shot when the pin was back.

I also liked the start to Lake - wasn't that the short par 4 with the approach shot over the lake to the double green?  Very cool.

Andy

[A.G._Crockett]

Andy,
You remember them well, which, at least for me, is often the mark of a good golf course!  #2 on Links does have a strange landing area, and I hit EXACTLY into the middle of it.  The ball just disappears, even from the elevated tee, and you find out when you get down there what happened.

Here's a link to a picture of #18 Links; hard to believe that the green is so wide that it extends all the way out of frame on the left side; the hump in the middle is actually one of the four levels.  The picture is very close to where the pin was for us on Wed.

http://www.rtjgolf.com/courses/grand_national/gallery.htm

#1 on Lake is as you describe it.  #18 there is also a good finisher, if for no other reason than it has an amazing green.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that so few people on GCA have apparently been over there, given that I live in GA and hadn't been until this week.  Now, I'm very, very curious to see some of the others that are highly regarded, though I think Grand National is probably considered to the the overall best.

[A.G._Crockett]

Sorry about that photo link; you have to fiddle around a little to get to the picture of Links #18.

[Mike Hendren]

Interesting.  Having played the Links 3 or 4 times, I have the 18th as one of my least favorites finishers anywhere.  Nothing to be gained by challenging the right-hand fairway bunkers since the harsh angle of the green and its shallow nature don't yield any line of charm.  

I don't understand why the green is so highly elevated, either, other than to demonstrate the contruction company's ability to stack boulders.  

The hole would be infinitely better in my opinion if the green's profile was lowered to lake level (think of the 4th hole) and it was oriented closer to 45 degrees.  

A.G., I'm sincerely impressed that you had a short-iron in.  Either you bombed the drive or played the course at 6,000 yards.  

Perhaps I'm just not a good enough golfer to play the hole.  I simply don't have the ability to hit a mid-iron off a hanging lie to a highly elevated shallow pedestal green with jail short and long.  

Funny, I like the fairway depression at the second as well.  It does not penalize the mid or high capper and is only a 1/4 stroke penalty for the low capper.  

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

I played both courses one weekend several years ago and really would like to get back.

I like the Cambrian Ridge RTJ courses (in Greenville, south of Montgomery AL), but preferred the Lake and Links.  Do you think anybody has ever walked them?  Those bridges are very long........

Disclaimer:  I have never been to Augusta National but have seen it on TV a lot.  I think some of those holes at the Lake and Links must look a lot like ANGC, with the steeply plunging, pine tree-lined fairways and strongly contoured greens.  There are a lot of challenging short game shots to be played.

I particularly liked the long par 3 across the water with the very wide green.  We played it at 215; there was a tee back on the hillside listed at 248 yards!  Right next to it was a really trickly little short par 4 where you have to negotiate a dogleg around the water, very fun.

I enjoyed the cape type holes, there were at least one on each course, and a lot of decision making required on tee shots.

It's really amazing how wide the variation in playability is from one RTJ Alabama Golf Trail location to another.  To me, Greenville, Dothan and Auburn (Lake-Links) are extremely playable and fun, but I wouldn't give you 50 cents for Birmingham or particularly Prattville...  

Maybe the disparity in opinions about the RTJ Trail is a reflection of this disparity in playability.

[Keith Williams]

A.G.

I'm glad you posted about the Grand National courses.  For the most part here on GCA the RTJ Trail courses get panned.  I have only visited three of the locations, but I walked away from Grand National thinking about how good it really is (head and shoulders above the other two stops I have played).  I only played the Links at GN, and thought it was a great course.  I really liked 4, 12, 14 and 18 among many others.  It has been years since I played there, but I remember 12 being very intimidating, getting narrower as one approached the green.  Also, the 18th is a great finisher and plays really tough from the back tees at 470 yards; I didn't play the whole course from the backs, but I did try out 18 from there - I do wonder if it might be a little more manageable with today's distances.

Keith

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G., I'm sincerely impressed that you had a short-iron in.  Either you bombed the drive or played the course at 6,000 yards.  

Mike

I'm both laughing and embarrassed here; until you wrote this, I forgot how I played the hole, which we were playing from the second set of tees at around 410 yds.  I hit my drive WAY right into the trees, punched a 6 iron out to and down to the bottom of the fairway, and hit an 8 iron on.  Made the putt for a 4, and I think my internal editing device immediately removed the bad drive and punchout from the hard drive!

Thanks for catching me; I need a lot more downhill slope than this hole has to have an 8 iron into a 410 yd. hole.  5 or 6 would be more my ticket, I fear.

[Andy Doyle]

AG:

When you live in Atlanta, you have to find a pretty good excuse to go over to Alabama -   - at least that's what I tell all my friends that went to Auburn.

Bogey:

Interesting we are on the exact opposite sides of the fence r.e. #2 and 18.  I played from the orange markers which is around 6,500 yards.  I'm not a real long hitter, but hit a normal tee shot both times right into those depressions on #2 - which were cut at rough height rather than fairway when I played there.  I guess it wouldn't bother me so much if there was of an option to the hole.  As I recall, there was very little chance of going right, inside the dogleg as there was almost no fairway and it was bordered by trees.  I suppose I should have just taken my medicine and laid up with a 3 wood short of the depressions or gone way left to avoid them.  Kind of a bummer as the tee shot - downhill & bending to the right - really fits my eye and my ball flight.  Then again, maybe that's something the architect's trying to do - lure you down your natural path when something against the grain might be a better play.

As to #18, I like how they used an inlet of the lake in front of the tee, and then a bigger inlet in front of the green.  I do think they could have made the rock wall a little more attractive/natural.  It's a tough finishing hole, requiring a good tee shot and a good approach.  Like you, I was hitting middle iron.  I think the shallow, wide green lures people into hitting too little club, which can obviously be disastrous.  Again, if I recall correctly there is very little trouble over the green, so the safer play is to take more club and take the wall/lake out of play.

Andy

[Andy Doyle]

Bill:

I've been to Grand National twice, so I've been trying to pull off a trip to one (or more) of the other sites.  Pretty sad since I live right next door and I've managed to get to Florida, California, Tennessee, and Ireland to play - oh, well ... so many courses ....

I have heard great things about Cambrian Ridge - I think that might be my next trip.  I was also looking at the Montgomery courses (The Judge, The Senator, etc) - they've gotten a lot of press.  You're not as impressed?

One of my buddies went to Silver Lakes recently and came back with a good report.

Also, one of my best friends has inlaws up near the new Fighting Joe course, so we may try that one out this year.

Andy

[Mike Hendren]

Andy,

It really is interesting.  

Long at the 18th is no place to be, pitching back up a 10+ feet bank to that shallow green.  This hole should be named "4 or 7."

Your point is well taken re the depression at the 2nd.  The times I played there it was maintained at fairway height.  As rough it makes little sense.  

BTW,

I like both courses, though they are over the top in a few places.  

Mike

[A.G._Crockett]

The bottom of the depressions on #2 were cut to fairway and overseeded, and with dormant bermuda rough the ball fed easily to the bottom.  I agree; cut as rough, they would really be goofy.

[Andy Doyle]

There was a lot to like at Grand National in addition to the courses.  I thought the experience was excellent - the service was basic (not that over-the-top CCFAD stuff) but good.  The clubhouse is really nice - sits up high with a commanding view.  Again, nice but basic.  I thought it was a very good value - very good golf that was not very expensive.

One of the things I didn't like (and this is certainly not exclusive to GN) was the over-reliance on the GPS in the carts.  I don't remember many (if any) markers in the fairways, and I don't think they had a yardage book.  That bugs me - mainly because I like collecting them, but also because I have a crappy memory.  I like being able to go back and review the holes.  While their website is very good overall, it lacks in this regard also - it doesn't have anything other than a few pictures of a couple of the holes.

They weren't done with the lodge when I was over there, so we stayed in downtown Auburn.  I love small college towns, so even if the lodge is great, I think I would still prefer this option.  It was great fun watching my 30 & 40 something buddies try to chat up the college chicks - probably no more successful than they were 20 years ago.

AD

[A.G._Crockett]

Andy,
The Lodge is now a Marriott, and pretty good, I thought.  Good restaurant, and a sports bar where we ate and watched PSU-FSU on the big screen.  Food was at least average for a hotel, though the restaurant was a little more pricey than a state-owned course ought to be.
They do have a yardage markers on the sprinkler heads, but there really are not many sprinkler heads.  There are also some 150 markers, but in general, I found the same thing to be true; I'm not a big fan of GPS anyway, and over-reliance on it is no fun.

[Bill_McBride]

Andy, I just found the Prattville courses you mention (10+ miles north of Montgomery) too demanding.  A lot of holes had semi blind approaches due to the high greens, and you just couldn't tell where the pin was.  I wound up over at least six and that was no place to to be.  It just got real repetitive and not in a fun sense.  The corkscrew million dollar bridge from the 18lth green on the Judge up to the clubhouse was wildly over the top, can't imagine trying to walk it!

Let me know if you plan a trip down to Cambrian Ridge, it's just 90 minutes or so from home and is a lot of fun.  Maybe we can get a few GCAers together.  John Goodman is in Birmingham, Mike Golden's here in Pensacola, John Bernhardt was just here looking at his damaged and needs to get back.  But wait for warmer weather!

[Andy Doyle]

Bill:

Spring comes earlier down that way, so maybe later in March or early April might be a good time.

Andy

[Bill_McBride]

Sounds good, let me know. Where are you located?

[Andy Doyle]

Bill:

I'm in Atlanta - ~ 2 hours to Grand National and 3-ish (?) from Cambrian Ridge.

Andy

[Pete Buczkowski]

AG,

Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner...threads move off the page much too quickly nowadays!

I think the Grand National courses make a delightful weekend...my wife and I have spent 3 such weekends there and enjoyed each one.  The courses are not perfect by any means, but the value proposition, combined with the new hotel, make it a great destination for a reasonable golf vacation.

As for walking, the Lake course is a difficult slog.  We hiked it once and found there to be too many long walks in between green and tees (think 9->10 and 16->17).  The Links is fine to walk...there are still a few long hikes, but none that will put you behind pace, save 1->2.  

IMO the Links is superior to the Lake; there is more variety in holes and strategy is more important.  Shaping the ball on the Links is a definite advantage, while the Lake course emphasizes straight and long.  The Lake's opening hole is weak; I just can't get over teeing off with a middle iron.  Also, the par 4 holes require similar clubs into the greens.  The back nine is quite nice but the long haul over the river hurt the flow.

Besides 1, 2, and 18, I am a big fan of the Links course.  While some call the green contouring over the top, I think it makes you think off the tee, which can only be appreciated after a few rounds.  Take the 7th hole.  It appears boring from the map (no greenside bunkers if I remember correctly), but the spine in the back of that green makes you place the tee shot.  18 is too much like the closer at Bay Hill; with that downhill lie its just too difficult to hold the green.  Another quirk is that the middle holes (8-11) are all short holes, but not necessarily good ones.  

Next time be sure to play the Short Course...its the best one I've ever played.  Its a great 2 hour walk around some really fun holes.

An ideal weekend itinerary is:
Sat - Walk Links morning, Ride Lake afternoon,
Sun - Walk Links morning, Walk Short afternoon once or twice, depending on time.

[A.G._Crockett]

Pete,
I thought I remembered you saying good things about Grand National.  I would've loved to play the short course; it looks great in the pictures, but time didn't allow this go round.  I'm already talking with some buddies here about a summer trip, so maybe then.  Again, a very, very impressive value, and far from a "typical" set of courses (greens especially).

[William King]

AG,

I just got back from a 3 day trail excursion and played Prattville (Senator) Cambrian Ridge and Grand National. I did not like Prattville much, the Senator is supposed to be links like, and yet, the fairways are extremely narrow. Add to that the obligatory dreaded No-Mow, no find ball either , on both sides of every hole and I agree, penal is what you get. I might have had a better time if I hadn't been fighting a hook that day, but....Cambrian Ridge was most enjoyable, but as with many 27 hole layouts, one nine, Loblolly, was not up to the standard set by the other 2. I really enjoyed the finishing holes on Canyon and Sherling: severely up hill. 9S measured 327 from the tees we played and I hit 3w-3w to the front portion of the green, luckily that is where the pin was! Grand National was the best of the 3. We played the Lake in the morning and Links in the afternoon. There was a stiff wind blowing Sunday and we found out that the Lake course is much more exposed than the Links course.

Bogey, the reason to challenge the bunker is to get a short iron in. I went over it and got a good kick off the dwnslope behind the bunker and stood 135 out with the flag on the right side making the distance to the pin about 10 yards less . A great finisher.

Andy, all RTJ courses have yardage books available; I have a collection to prove it!  
BTW, I'm in Atlanta as well, where do you play often?

[A.G._Crockett]

William,
I play at Alpharetta CC; it's a funny little 6100 yd., par 70 track that'll never host the Open, but it's home and I love it.

[Bill_McBride]

Anyone interested in a late April weekend outing at Grand National?  Let me know, we'll put it together!

(No Kings Putter in March or April, so there's a hole in the GCA calendar!  )

[William King]

William,
I play at Alpharetta CC; it's a funny little 6100 yd., par 70 track that'll never host the Open, but it's home and I love it.

Small world, I went to HS in Alpharetta, Milton, and now am in E Cobb; play at Cobblestone a lot as well as at Canongate.

[A.G._Crockett]

My wife (same last name) has taught World History and AP European History at Milton since 1981.  Reese, Cloy, Burnette, Stephens, etc., etc., are all buddies of mine for long, long years now.  When did you graduate?
(BTW, I teach down the street at Roswell, retired from coaching this year.  We're still winning the football game every year. )

Just looked at your age, and you're too old!  However, I work with Tim McFarlin and a bunch of other people you would know.