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Andrew Cunningham

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Forest Creek - New Course
« on: January 05, 2006, 12:23:05 PM »
Has anyone played or seen the new course at Forest Creek in Pinehurst, NC?  I'm assuming Fazio did it but I don't know much about it.  Thanks, Andrew.

jim_lewis

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Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2006, 12:56:19 PM »
Andrew:

I can tell you this much:  The course (North) has now been open nearly a year. It was designed by Fazio and his team, but if you played both courses, you might not guess that they were done by the same designer. The North course has slightly more elevation changes and has a much wilder and more natural look, especially the waste areas. It also plays a stroke or two tougher mainly because the greens are more subtle and the green surrounds present more difficult recoveries for shots that miss the green. All of the sand is the natural sand found in the ground. It is not consistent and contains gravel in some areas. Sand shots are more difficult, although all of the sand plays as "thru the green", another reason the North course plays a little tougher.

Several guys who post here have played the course. I'll leave it to them to pass judgement on the quality of the course.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

redanman

Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2006, 01:05:51 PM »
Crusty, HNY:

What did Fazio say to the members on opening day?

BV

John Kavanaugh

Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2006, 01:16:11 PM »
I saw a number of holes before it opened a few years ago and thought what I saw looked like a fantastic compliment to the existing course.  I have never understood why the posters on this site have kept so quiet about the place...It must really be hard to come up with a number for both courses knowing that you would have to stick yet another Fazio on your list.  I'd like to see Forest Creek as a 36 hole complex seen as a single place...I don't think you can join just one course and not the other, so why split them up.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2006, 01:20:20 PM »
There was no openning day event, and as far as I know, Tom has never addressed the membership. Because of problems with permits, the course was built piece-meal over a period of more than two years. When the last few holes were ready for play, the course opened without fanfare.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

John Kavanaugh

Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2006, 01:23:12 PM »
Excuse me, 37 hole complex...So, does the extra par 3 come into play on both courses as a press hole.

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2006, 01:38:04 PM »
When I was there during Dixie Cup we played the original course then toured the new course.

Let me first say the original is probably the best Fazio courses I've ever played.  It is really, really good test with some fun holes and some really good green complexes.  

I liked a lot of aspects of the new course but didn't love it.  It did look very tough.  He gets criticized for the four or five holes that are around the man made lake, which apparently took about 5 years to get permitting on.  I didn't totally understand the need to build that land is so good there anyway and condusive to golf.  

I also questioned the need for some of the waste area's around the tee boxes, it seemed impractical since it looked obvious that they were maintaining these areas.

Some of the green complexs looked artificially raised as well, so you really needed to use an aerial game on many places instead of just using the land that was there.  

Overall I thoughgt it looked like a really nice course though, and a good compliment to the original course.  If I was a member there playing every day(as a lot of the members there do) I would probably play the original 5 times and the new course 2 times a week.  

The whole place there is really a fantastic facililty, the Men's locker room might be the best locker room I've ever seen.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2006, 01:52:17 PM »
I've played both courses (on different occasions).  I like the new (North) course a little better than the South.  Jim's description is fitting, as he should know!

The irony in Jim's mentioning of the new course being tougher is that the original course has a slightly higher CR and slope, IIRC.

I took some pictures that I'll try to post sometime soon.  Maybe next week.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2006, 02:06:00 PM »
I got to play about 11 holes on the North course last year during a trip to the Pine Needles tourney.  For a quick first impression, I really liked the holes that I played.  The course had a more rugged natural look to it overall compared to the South course.  I'd have to play it again to really get a better feel for the course.

For a 36 hole complex, Forest Creek is very good.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 02:40:18 PM by JSlonis »

Brad Tufts

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Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2006, 04:14:03 PM »
I have played Forest Creek South twice and the older nine of the new North about three times.  Last March, I was able to see the entire North course finally finished, so I have played it continually once.

Several differences/similarities between the two:

As already mentioned, the new course has a much rougher look than the old, with more sandy waste areas, large bunkers with rough edges (and some have grass planted in them).  I attribute quite a bit of this to the "new" look of the newest nine, as when i played the grass in the fairways and rough wasn't exactly totally grown-in and was obviously young.  This is very different compared with the more mature turf on the South and the older (#1-5, #12-14, #18) holes on the North.

The challenges on the South course are always laid out in front of you, whereas on the North, there is more deception.  Tee shots on #s 3, 5, 6, 11 are blind, and there are more shots that must be played from the correct sides of the fairway.

The North to me was a definite attempt to make something different.  The South was built in the same classic Sandhills style of design, and it compares favorably in strategy and conditioning with almost every course in the area, save perhaps #2 and Pine Needles.  The North was meant to be different, even though the "natural" appearance of many of the hazards is toned down from the level of wild shaping found at a place like Tobacco Road.

There are features on both courses that incorporate luck into the design, an important aspect of a facility designed primarily for member play.  The blind tee shots on the new course play into this, as does the crazy, three tiered green at the par-5 tenth, at the end of a somewhat bland hole.  The biggest example of this on the South is the strategic uphill par-5 third, which has many options of getting the job done.

Highlights/lowlights:

The aformentioned lake at the end of the back nine is not in character with the rest of the property.  Water only comes into play in the form of a large body of water one other time (#9 at the original course).  To think that the permitting of this lake held up the entire project for five years is ridiculous.  Golf holes can be found in mere days in the Sandhills, especially on land like at Forest Creek.  The holes in question (#15-17 on the new course) are pretty, but do not present the strategy the rest of the course does.

In my opinion, the best hole on the new course is #6, a par four of about 430, doglegging slightly left to right and downhill.  The green is slightly elevated from its surrounds and more wide than deep, and is almost totally fronted by a deep, rough-edged bunker.  The question from the tee is whether to lay back to the top of the hill leaving a long-iron from flat ground to a wide but shallow green, or to hit the tee shot as far as possible, leaving a shorter iron from a severe downhill lie over a deep bunker with a steep dropoff behind.  

The back nine's highlight comes not around the lake, but at the 330-yd 13th.  This hole presents another choice with a downhill slope between the upper fairway and the green.  Does the player lay back with an iron or try to make the bottom of the hill, leaving just a short pitch.  The green is adaquately false-fronted and smallish, wrapped around a deep pot bunker front and center.

In terms of Fazio's designs, I have played 7 including both at FC.  The others are Osprey Ridge (FL), The International-Oaks Course (MA), Wollaston CC (with George, MA), Old North State (NC), and Pinehurst #8.  I rate the original course at FC as the best Fazio I've played, and the new course as #2.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 10:18:03 AM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 06:14:30 PM »
It seems to me that most of the comments made above are fair and accurate. However, a few points have been raised which may benefit from additional information.

First, to be clear. The original course is the South and the new course is the North.

Scott:  It is true that when the North course opened it was initially rated and sloped lower than the South. Everyone who played the course questioned that, and a new rating was done. The current ratings are as follows:

North:
Championship Tees:  7139yds      74.7    144
Long tees                6651          72.0    138
Intermediate            6228          70.0     133

South:        
Championship            7067yds     73.7     139
Long                        6603         71.1     133
Intermediate             6292          70.0     130

Most of us think the difference is even greater.

John:
The 19th hole is only in play on the South course.

There are no bent fairways. All are bermuda and the greens are A-1, A-4 or some combination.


With regard to the ponds and the permitting issue:
The South course has a small pond in front of the par 3 17th, and another which fronts the par four 9th and the par three 19th hole. These small ponds were created many decades ago and look like they have been there forever. They provide irrigation for the South course, but during dry periods have to be supplemented by a 1000ft well.

The North course was routed several years ago and called for a pond near the end of the back nine. The pond was and is essential for irrigation. The 1st, 2nd, and 18th holes were built in the late nineties and served as a practice loop for a few years. When permitting was sought for the pond to build the remaining 15 holes, there was an extended drought in the area. It was politically impossible for the Corps of Engineers to grant a permit for a high-rent club to dam up a creek when there were water restrictions imposed thoughout the area. So, the club proceeded to build the holes that could be built without the pond. For a year or so we played what are now holes 1-5, 12-14, and 18 as a temporary third nine. Finally the drought ended and the permit was granted and the remaing holes were completed. Holes # 15 and 17 on North are par fours that require a moderate tee shot over water and then have water in play on the right. The pond is "man-made" in the sense that it was created by daming up a creek. It is too pristine to look natural at the moment but proably will over time.  So, of the 37 holes, there are three par fours where water is definitely in play. There are two par threes that require a only a decent shot to carry water. Frankly, I wish there were no ponds on the course, but water is hardly overdone, it seems to me.

Early on the plan was to have what I call "satellite dish" bunkers on the new course, but  that decision was reversed in favor of the natural, rugged look. That decision might have been influenced by the emerging popularity of the natural look at places like Sand Hills and World Woods. It may have also been influenced by the fact that Tom Fazio and one of the principals in the club are members of Pine Valley.

I am not sure which course I prefer. I think it is a matter of personal taste. The South definitely has the more classic Pinehurst look and more of what I call "pure golf".  The North is more dramatic and appeals to those who favor that style. Two courses could hardly be different on so similar property.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Andrew Cunningham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2006, 06:50:01 PM »
Jim et all,

Thanks for the candid and informative posts on the North course at Forest Creek in Pinehurst.  John, I'm looking forward to your pictures.  Sounds like a great 36 hole property that doesn't get the kind of exposure it deserves - but then again maybe that's the point.

Andrew

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2006, 10:07:12 PM »
It's one of the very few, if not the only real estate development course without a website. That's low profile!!!
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Forest Creek - New Course
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2006, 10:22:05 PM »
Forest Creek Golf Club is, strickly speaking, a real estate development. All members (since the charter members) must own property. However, there is no advertising and membership is by invitation.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon