Does Tobacco Road belong in top 100

[cary lichtenstein]

All these posts got me thinking about whether Tobacco Road should rate in the top 100?

And if so, about what number?

I'll post my opinion later

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

In what "top 100" are you talking about?

We had some problems with that the last time you talked about a top 10, so I thought you would have learned to be a little more specific.  

Cheers,

Tom D

[JNC Lyon]

Never played it, but I would put TR in my top 50 "Courses I Want To Play Soon" list  

[Jay Flemma]

A while back, I wrote an article about why I love tobacco road and think its one of the greatest golf values in the country.

Part 1 is here:

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2004/12/tobacco-road-sanford-nc-part-1.html

Part 2 is here:

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2004/12/tobacco-road-part-2.html

I really believe this is one of the best GOLF ADVENTURES I have ever seen and go back as often as I can.  I cant put a number on it because comparing links golf to parkland golf to whatever golf is difficult and arbitrary.  I can say with conviction that I thnnk it is very high on my list...top 5 public to me personally, probly top 20 in the country for PUBLIC courses speaking generally.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

Let's take 2 lists and try to see if it fits and where in both:

Golfweek Modern Top 100 United States

and

Golf Digest Top 100 United States

[Tom_Doak]

It's never going to make the GOLF DIGEST top 100 list based on the mindset of the average GOLF DIGEST panelist.  It's too quirky, and too short.  Where is it in their list of the Best in N.C.?  If it's not right below the other top-100 courses, it has little chance of getting in.

I'm surprised it is not in the GOLFWEEK list of the top 100 modern courses.  If Royal New Kent is in, they should throw it out and replace it with Tobacco Road.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

It ranks 23rd in the state of North Carolina

How can that be

[Craig Van Egmond]

Where does Tobacco Road rank amoung Stranz courses?  I have only played Tobacco Road so I can't compare. Is it better than MPCC?

I love the course but my feeling is that only top 100 list it would make is the Top 100 you can play. There at least 3 courses here in Oklahoma alone that I feel are better than Tobacco Road: Southern Hills, Oak Tree and Karsten Creek.

[Tim Gavrich]

I know there might be a horrid shreiking, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when I say this, but FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, let's compare Tobacco Road to the bottom ten courses in each of the lists Mr. Lichtenstein wishes to use.

Golf Digest Overall Top 100, 90-100:

91.   PETE DYE G.C.   7,248   72   62.28
Bridgeport, W.Va.—Pete Dye (1994)   
92.   GALLOWAY NATIONAL G.C.   6,901   71   62.27
Galloway, N.J.—Tom Fazio (1995)         
93.   SHOREACRES   6,521   71   62.26
Lake Bluff, Ill.—Seth Raynor (1921)   
94.   OLD WAVERLY G.C.   7,018   72   62.25
West Point, Miss.—Bob Cupp & Jerry Pate (1988)   
95.   PLAINFIELD C.C.   6,962   72   62.23
Plainfield, N.J.—Donald Ross (1921)   
96.   THE G.C. AT BRIAR’S CREEK   7,117   72   62.20
Johns Island, S.C.—Rees Jones (2001)         
97.   HARBOUR TOWN G. LINKS   6,973   71   62.04
Hilton Head Island—Pete Dye & Jack Nicklaus (1969)
98.   TPC AT SAWGRASS (Stadium)   6,954   72   61.96
Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla.—Pete Dye (1981)   
99.   SAHALEE C.C. (South/North)   7,003   72   61.94
Sammamish, Wash.—Ted Robinson (1969)   
100.   EUGENE C.C.   6,854   72   61.90
Eugene, Ore.—Robert Trent Jones (1967)

Golf Digest Top 100 Public 90-100:

91.   PELICAN HILL G.C. (Ocean North)
Newport Coast, Calif.—949-760-0707; pelicanhill.com
92.   THE GENERAL AT EAGLE RIDGE
Galena, Ill.—800-892-2269; eagleridge.com
93.   TRUE BLUE G.C.
Pawleys Island, S.C.—888-483-6800; truebluegolf.com
94.   KIVA DUNES G.C.
Gulf Shores, Ala.—888-833-5482; kivadunes.com
95.   GRAND BEAR G. CSE.
Saucier, Miss.—800-946-7777; grandcasinos.com
96.   THE BLUFFS ON THOMPSON CREEK
St. Francisville, La.—888-634-3410; thebluffs.com
97.   QUARRY OAKS G.C.
Ashland, Neb.—888-944-6001; quarryoaks.com
98.   PGA WEST (TPC Stadium)
La Quinta, Calif.—760-564-7170; pgawest.com
99.   SEMIAHMOO G. & C.C. (Loomis Trail)
Blaine, Wash.—360-332-1725; semiahmoo.com
100.   BRICKYARD CROSSING G. CSE.
Indianapolis—317-492-6572; brickyardcrossing.com

I have not played any courses in the tenth ten of the Overall list, but I would put TR ahead of quite a few courses on the Public list, and not just in the tenth ten.
Such as:
Any of the courses at Barefoot that are mentioned.
Heritage
True Blue
Tiger's Eye
Sugarloaf (Maine)--but only by a very little bit, on the most general scale of which I can conceive.

Ok, release the lions.

[Jay Flemma]

While we're on the topic, TOC Sawgrass is horribly underrated on that list too.

Tom, isn't The Road clocking in at 6800+ as a par 71?  Which means it will play more like 7050?  (again using my formula of "add 200-250 yards for every shot under a par of 72 to see what it will REALLY play like?)  I thought it had goodly length...

Thats why I feel that Crystal Downs at 6500 yards par 70 feels more like close to 7000...not that there's anything wrong with that!

[Brad Klein]

Since none of you is associated with the Golfweek list, I'll tell you that Royal New Kent is not on our top-100 Modern either. As for Tobacco Road in particular and Mike Strantz in general, no designer generates more polarized evaluations among our raters than than he does, and of all his courses, none generates more polarized votes than TR, where the votes are spread almost equally across the board from 2-9. There's a similar phenomenon with Pete Dye's work from the 1980s, esp. PGA West.

I happen to love TR and think it's among a handful of courses that I never tire of seeing or playing; certainly more fun and more interesting than anything in the Pinehurst area. But it drives me nuts and I hate those shallow greens (esp. 13 and 15.)

[Jay Flemma]

Brad, 13 doesn't bother me so much since its a par-5, but your right, the 15th green and the entire hole are a bit quirky...but you have to admit...it has great CHARACTER.

[A.G._Crockett]

To the original question posed by this thread:

Yes.

[Bill Wernecke Jr]

I just played Tobacco Road for the first time, and I have had the opportunity to play a fair number of courses on all of the lists.

Would I put it in the top 100?  Absolutely!  But I can understand why many others would not.

For me, there is something about certain courses that have the perfect combination of challenge and fun.  Among newer courses, I would put Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, and Arcadia Bluffs in that group.  Tobacco Road may not quite rate with them, but it is very close.

[Andy Hughes]

Cary, I wish I had a better basis for comparison for saying one course deserves to be on some list or ranked ahead of some other course.
But I do know that I find Tobacco Road thrilling, and any number of the shots there to just be more fun than elsewhere. I played TR back-to-back with Mid-Pines two years ago, and frankly found TR to be much more fun and memorable (not sure if that says more about me, or Mid-Pines, or Tobacco Road  )
I do have the odd issues with the course and/or maintenance, but they are minor quibbles in the bigger picture.

[Jason Blasberg]

Tom, isn't The Road clocking in at 6800+ as a par 71?  Which means it will play more like 7050?  (again using my formula of "add 200-250 yards for every shot under a par of 72 to see what it will REALLY play like?)  I thought it had goodly length...

Jay:

I'm holding my yardage book in hand and the mileage from the back tees (Ripper) is 6532 (par 71).  Perhaps some unpublished yardage could be gained but I don't think there's an extra 268 yards out there.  

Personally, I wouldn't want to see it play any longer, hitting more than 7 iron into number 9, for instance, would be a little much.  

Jason  

[Jonathan Cummings]

A couple of other strong points to TR is that it boasts a world class head pro - Chris Brown, and a clubhouse as understated and charming as they come.

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:  Whose list gives points for the clubhouse or the professional?

Jay:  I have always figured one shot of par was worth about 150 yards of playing length, maybe slightly more.  Crystal Downs plays more like 6800 yards if there's no wind; the wind does the rest.  Rye at 6300 par 68 is more like 6900, not 7300.

And I thought I remembered that Tobacco Road was 6500 or 6600; I remember looking at the card and thinking it was good it was so short, that you wouldn't get beat up too badly at that length.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - watch out or we'll start accusing you of being a Pat Mucci!  I said "strong points", nothing regarding top 100.

A couple of other strong points to TR

Klein will have to weigh in but I think the GW rating category -Natural setting and overall land plan - covers clubhouse issues....  Here's the GW definition of the category.

-quality and aesthetic relationship of golf course, clubhouse, cart paths and other facility features to surrounding structures and native scenery.

You're right about the pro though - nothing in top 100 catgeories cover them.

JC

[Brad Klein]

Actually, I wish people paid more attention to clubhouses and how they integrate with the scale and culture of the golf course. Too bad a lot of people mistake a big, garish expensive clubhouse with a good one. On the contrary, it has to do with comfort, fit, ambiance and scale -for which 5,000 sq. ft. clubhouses are often better suited than 50,000 sq. ft. ones.

Interesting how ideally snuggled into the sites the clubhouses at Tobacco Road, True Blue and Caledonia are.

[Jay Flemma]

Tom, you're right...6554.

[redanman]

GW top 100 modern yes

GD Top 100, Seriously? They haven't a clue,

Golf Magazine(?) I am surprized has not to my knowledge had it in their USA top 100........

My top 100 US? Probably, it has a lot of great features, angles, interesting and varied greens and holes, but 15 is a real odd duck to be sure.

I had the privilige (when I could still do that early a.m.sort of thing) of playing it at 8:00 first off with just me and my wife; we had an absolute blast being able to really look at everything and soak it in.  We also both played great, she nearly broke 80 and I almost broke 70.  I have to be careful when I play a course and score really well to understand what it means.  In that case that day, it was stimulating architecture that asked me to hit good to great shots.




p.s. Del Ratcliffe are you lurking around?  IM me please.

Bill

[Scott_Burroughs]

but 15 is a real odd duck to be sure.

Bill,

Have you played TR since they shaved down the hill (not all
of it) fronting the left 2/3 of the green at 15?

You can see the shaved down portion somewhat here (in
addition to the dogleg par 3 green):



and moreso here:

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott

That bag and person putting in the first photo look familiar.

Yes, he looks somewhat Remy-niscent of a guy I played with early last year.


Can't remember who this redneck is either in this ass-pic...



...but he was taking this picture:

[cary lichtenstein]

How awe inspring is that tee shot?