If a cell phone rings and noone's around to hear it, is the architecture great ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I am against prohibiting the use of cell phones because when I compare the quality of my friendships of those who need cell phones

Whom, amongst your group is so important that they need to be in constant contact with other parties during the course of your round ?

It would also be interesting to hear what other members of your club think about your cell phone needs.[/color]

to play with me during the week against the disruption of the occasional call to my game I choose my friends every God damn time...

I understand, you choose the cell phone and you and your friends perceived best interests, versus those of the membership's.

And what did these fellows do before cell phones were available ?

Did they never play golf, or did they only take the game up when cell phones became available ?

You're trying to CON us, you've already CONNED yourself.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

The "real" truth, which most cell phone advocates won't admit is:

Most of the calls are incidental and not important.

There really isn't much you can do to resolve an issue created by an incoming or outgoing call without taking an inordinate amount of time.

You're not in your office and thus, can't reference documents.
You can't hold a meeting
You can't be on site to view the crisis/problem.
You can't win the argument with your wife/girlfriend.
You can't perform surgery,
You can't fill a cavity,
You can't fill out a tax return or prepare an audit.
You can't convince your kids on what school to attend or how to improve their grades.
You can't oversee the repairmen.
You can't resolve the billing dispute

And, when you HONESTLY examine these calls, incoming and outgoing, most of them are B.S.   Unimportant
Most of them can be handled after the round.

ESPECIALLY ON SATURDAY'S, SUNDAY'S AND HOLIDAYS.

[Michael Moore]

Mr. Crockett -

A direct relationship is a positive relationship between two variables in which they both increase or decrease in conjunction.

Ergo, golf course architecture and cell phone policies are not directly related.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

May I suggest you do as I have done..fix yourself a good stiff drink and ravage your beautiful wife...continue this tomorrow..Happy New Year..

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

JakaB,

And, more imporantly, a Healthy New Year for you and your family.

A.G. Crockett,

You too.

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, I don't think there's a relationship between the standard of architecture and a club's cell phone policy, but the "better" clubs tend to have a no-phone rule.  And the "better" clubs tend to have better golf courses.  

At my club (Commonwealth GC in Melbourne), phones must be switched off, except for a designated area in the clubhouse where outgoing calls can be made (there used to be a payphone in that area), and in the carpark.  In essence, if your phone rings, you're breaking the rules.  The only exception is for medical staff who are on-call, and for use in medical emergencies.  

I agree with what you've said about cell phones - there is no place for them on the golf course.  If someone can't spend 4-5 hours without using one, they shouldn't be playing.  They managed without phones up until ten years ago, and should be able to now.

[Tim Bert]

I hate cell phones on the course.  Part of this is because I don't really like cell phones in general.  I like being somewhere that I can't be found.  I finally broke down and got a cell phone because it meant I'd have a separate line from my wife and I could be assured that all incoming calls were mine.  The only thing I like less than cell phones is answering someone elses calls.

I think that cell phones should be allowed for special exceptions such as a wife that is 9.5 months pregnant or a child on their death bed in a hospital.  Basically, it should be a reason that dictates you should not be playing golf in the first place - in which case I'd prefer you didn't.

Happy New Year!

[ForkaB]

Pat

My home club (Aberdour) has had a no-cell phone policy for the past 5 or so years, but I do not see any improvement in the architecture or its ranking.

If we made the club more discriminatory might that help?

Happy New Year

Rich

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat-What about the ability to get assistance in the advent of someone needing immediate medical attention?
Should we just take on the position of Mortimer Duke when his brother was having a heart attack? Scroom (paraphrased for younger viewers)

[JLahrman]

Mr. Crockett -

A direct relationship is a positive relationship between two variables in which they both increase or decrease in conjunction.

Ergo, golf course architecture and cell phone policies are not directly related.

I disagree.  Anything can be correlated (and not necessarily positively either; correlation just implies that the variance in one helps explain variance in the other; can be positive or negative).  However, correlation does not necessarily imply causation.  We hear the oft cited statistic about the stock market going up in years when the NFC wins the Super Bowl or the day after Tiger wins a tournament.  Is one causing the other?  That's anyone's guess but there is some correlation for whatever reason.

[Craig_Rokke]

I thought most private clubs don't allow cell phones in certain areas. Personally, whether I'm lining up my 3rd putt on a great course, or a piece of ---- course, I'd prefer not to hear some idiot's "Sweet Home Alabama" ringer break the silence.

[BCrosby]

Every private club I know in Atlanta bans cell phones. It is a rule hundreds of clubs have. There is no correlation beteeen the rule and great courses or exclusivity.

I agree with the rule, btw.

Bob

[Mike Nuzzo]

I would say it hurts the architecture... based on Adam's observation.

I recently visited a great course with a no phone policy... it was littered with yellow emergency medical alert buttons.

Cheers

[Andy Troeger]

I've always felt the cell phone policy at some of these exclusive clubs is b.s.  

Why does a club have to be exclusive in order to have a no cell phone policy ?[/color]


You should be allowed to use your phone in certain designated areas- say in the locker room or outside in the parking lot.  

How would you propose that incoming calls be prohibited while someone isn't in these areas ?

Afterall, the dialer doesn't necessarily know where you are.
[/color]

For many people it is important to stay in touch with business or family.  

Perhaps for those selfish people who feel that they are more important than anyone else.

If you're at a club, it's easy to be reached from the outside, and there are plenty of house and pay phones from which to make calls, you know, specially designated areas just for that purpose, just like wanted.[/color]

Sure keep it quiet and be considerate of others, but let's get real.

I am real, you're the one in the dark.

Trying to putt to the tunes of an incoming call is not what golfers want.
Listening to people argue, while golfers are preparing to hit their shots is not what golfers want.
Hearing the beeps on the dial pad while a golfer is in his backswing is not what golfers want.

It's the selfish few, who think that they are so much more important than anyone and everyone else that ruin the game for others.

And that's why clubs have been smart enough to ban cell phones.   They want to protect and preserve the golfing experience for their members and guests.

If you are fortunate enough to get invited to Sand Hills or any of the other courses I listed, make sure that you tell your host to "get real" and that you WILL be using your cell phone during the course of your round.   I"m sure you'll be a popular invitee. [/color]

Pat,
  I understand what you're saying in a sense but I don't think you're really thinking about Wayne's points in these responses. Its not really that hard to have the phone on silent, check for messages at the turn and return anything vitally important from some discreet place at the turn (obviously this has to be a 1-2 minute activity...not something where you keep others waiting). There are many people out there that simply can't play golf on a weekday without being at least somewhat available in case something comes up at their work. For those of us that only play 30-40 times a year those opportunities are precious...and if it means the cell phone has to be used in the manner listed above I don't see anything wrong with that.

  Obviously there are many people out there that don't use them in an appropriate manner. I agree that under almost no circumstance should the phone's ringer be on while on the course. I also agree that when the guest at someone else's club a different code of cell phone etiquette should be observed. Its a good policy, but I think that banning them from the grounds entirely is a bit much.

[Sean Leary]

At my course, we have a no cell phone policy except in the parking lot.  That being said, a good percentage of members will take it out with them on the course, particularly during the week, myself included. That being said, I have never heard a phone ring or actually heard somebody take a call. The ringer gets shut off, and if somebody has to check messages or call somebody back, they do it by walking ahead or staying behind the group to do so. It almost always has to do with work. In the clubhouse and grille, no one ever would talk on a cell phone because of the policy.

If we didn't have the rule, phones would be ringing and people wouldn't be as respectful to their groups and others on the course. So I think it works, although the rule isn't followed to the letter of the law.

As an aside, we have a no jeans in the grille policy and no backwards hat policy.  Can that also be tied to the architecture?

[Kyle Harris]

Having been in a situation where the presence of my cell phone in my golf bag (switched off), coupled with my boy scout first aid training has saved a life (or at least made one a bit more livable) I typically keep mine on me.

However, you'd never know I had it unless you were rooting through my bag or dying.

I don't talk about it, I don't mention it.

This past year I was bad on a few occassions, but have resolved to not make it a problem this year.

[Top100Guru]

Pat;

At Secession, if you use your cell phone anywhere other than the (2) "designated areas" (and these two areas are absolutely No Where on the GROUNDS).......you are subject to suspension for one full season of golf.......with a policy like that, you can imagine how little problems there actually are.....by the way, if a guest violates the policy, the guest "AND" the member are subject to the suspension, thus making it inherrent upon the member to spell out the do's and don'ts at the club......98% of the people that walk onto the grounds of any "good club" already have the appropriate good manners and proper decorum.....the only real rule at any great club is to "RESPECT THY FELLOW MEMBER" and this cell phone issue is merely an extention of that!

[Wayne Freeman]

Andy, thankyou for those nice comments.  I don't think I could have responded to Pat any better.  You certainly present what I think is the most reasonable policy.  And Happy New Year!

[Top100Guru]

Look.........going to the golf course is a commitment of time, just like going to The Opera, The Ballet, or a Broadway musical....you don't talk, call, or answer your phone at these places (at least I'd hope not) so why should the golf course be any different for your 3 - 4 hour round.

If there is an emergency, anyone could leave a message on their respective voicemail suggesting to contact the Pro Shop, or even as a last resort "forward their cell number to the pro shop" (maybe for the Doctor Types or people expecting news on a preganant wife or other such important activity)

If you can't break away from your phone for 3 -4 hours, then perhaps you should take up a new sport like Racketball or Backgammon.

I once saw "Jim Gray" formerly of NBC now I believe ABC/ESPN get on his cell phone before he tee'd off, and proceed to talk on it the "ENTIRE ROUND" at a club in Atlanta.....he put in on the seat of the cart between shots, only to pick it up and continue talking for nearly 4 straight hours!!!!!

What a JOKE!!!!!!!!

I also played in a USGA Qualifier recently, at a top 50 club in the mid-west, where I had never once seen theis club hold a qualifier. During the practice round, I saw a guy bantering about on his phone, totally oblivious to anyone or anything going on around him. I went up to the guy, and promptly told him, "It's assholes like you that make Prominent Clubs scratch their heads and think twice before holding events such as this, now get off the damn phone and be respectful..JERK"

The guy shot 94 in the qualifier.....go figure, he didn't belong there in the first place!!!!

[Tim MacEachern]

A few months ago I played behind another morning group and saw one member head off #2 tee back to the parking lot.  Turns out he was on-call at the hospital.  He managed to rejoin his group on #12 after performing an emergency appendectomy.

In my mind he has every right to carry a cell phone on my course, or any other course in the world.  So blanket rules on cell-phone use are for the birds.

BTW, lately I've been treating these interruptions as positives.  Think about it:  you get to practise how you'll handle such things in a big tournament.  You get to learn how to 1) recognise that your attention has been altered, 2) step away, 3) settle down and 4) reapproach the shot.  It's an opportunity!  Learning to step away is huge.

This is like when you're raising kids.  If they misbehave, you should be there to deter the bad behaviour.  (Hands-on contact; no hitting, yelling or arguing, just stop their movements and quietly, but firmly, say "No.").  If it happens again within a short period of time, that's not the time to get angry; that's the time to smile to yourself and think "This is a great opportunity for reinforcement."

[tonyt]

Its not really that hard to have the phone on silent, check for messages at the turn and return anything vitally important from some discreet place at the turn (obviously this has to be a 1-2 minute activity...not something where you keep others waiting). There are many people out there that simply can't play golf on a weekday without being at least somewhat available in case something comes up at their work. For those of us that only play 30-40 times a year those opportunities are precious...and if it means the cell phone has to be used in the manner listed above I don't see anything wrong with that.

  Obviously there are many people out there that don't use them in an appropriate manner. I agree that under almost no circumstance should the phone's ringer be on while on the course. I also agree that when the guest at someone else's club a different code of cell phone etiquette should be observed. Its a good policy, but I think that banning them from the grounds entirely is a bit much.

I agree with the above premise.

As an anti-cell phone advocate, I see no problem in the discreet carrying of a silent phone that is selectively monitored. I do see a problem in that when this is allowed, far too many other people either ignore the discretion or don't notice their effect on others. Additionally and along the same lines, some people need the discreetly allowed laws in order to both play golf and be available to one or more key persons from their business or family. And yet for too many who interpret these laws, there is a ridiculous definition imposed by an individual that ends up in them taking an "unavoidable" business call that wasn't unavoidable or even important in the first place, or a call from the wife asking what he would like her to take out of the freezer for tonight.

They have to remember that their call is not my call. I'm suffering for their behaviour. Between 18s with a group of friends, we have had to reinforce a rule that after the first 18, those needing to return calls must place their lunch order first. Sounds trivial, but in the past, we'd be held up by nearly half an hour because somebody who thought they were doing the right thing by waiting 'til the 19th ended up costing us too much by not ordering lunch until the rest of us were eating. The tunnel visioned cell phone user simply doesn't see what the problem is.

Like when driving a car. It looks like a child is behind the wheel, then you pull up close and see a guy on a phone. Don't leave the discretion and margin for error in his hands, because he's the one who can't see what effect it is having.

The principles espoused on here by sensibly minded individuals regarding the considerate, silent and very tactful presence of a phone in the bag and its potential uses are wonderful. But when in action, the rest of planet earth gets to use these rules too, and doesn't seem to be able to remain discreet or considerate at all. Apart from the above mentioned medical emergencies and the like, few calls to somebody when they have already decided to take half a day off can't wait until the end of a nine or the eighteenth.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat-What about the ability to get assistance in the advent of someone needing immediate medical attention?
I've been playing golf for over 50 years and can count on one hand the number of medical emergencies that occured on a golf course while I was playing.

Statistically, that's a bogus excuse.
In all the cell phone use I've observed, not one of them was a medical emergency.

Doctors ON CALL can and do carry pagers, and I have no problem with that.

Prior to cell phones, many courses had emergency phones at various locations on the golf course.[/color]

Andy Troeger,

The examples you provide are not realistic.
Few, if any, keep the ring mode on silent.

And, if a call only takes 1 to 2 minutes it can't be that important, especially if the golfer continues the round.

I hear cell phones going off at funerals, theatres, etc., etc..
It tends to be culturally and generationally related.

And, for those fellows you reference, who are playing 30-40 times a year, and HAVE to use their cell phones, I have absolutely no sympathy.  That's a lot of golf.

And, you'll notice, that it's the same offenders time and time again.   They can't be that important or have that many crises in their lives.[/color]

Tim MacEAchern,

I find that hard to believe.

He went to the back to the locker room, changed shoes, got his car, drove to the hospital, changed, scrubbed and prepared for surgery, performed the surgery, cleaned up, changed, left the hosptal, drove back to the golf course. changed shoes and drove back to his group all within an hour and a half to two hours ?

Who was the unlucky patient ?

An emergency appendectomy should/could be performed by the attending hospital staff/residents.

Why would a doctor on a golf course be called in to do an emergency appendectomy, it doesn't make sense.

Did you ever consider that he might have had a rendezvous at the no-tell motel ?  

[Jordan Wall]

I've been playing golf for over 50 years and can count on one hand the number of medical emergencies that occured on a golf course while I was playing.

Did you guys know that quite possibly one of the best golfers of all time, Moe Norman, never owned a phone in his entire life.  He never needed one, and he played every single day.  He also only saw a doctor once, because he got a heart attack, and that was not even on a golf course.  Point being there is almost no time where there will be a medical emergency on a course, and also you dont need cell phones when your golfing.  I think all golf courses should ban cell phones because they bug me  If a 80 year old golfer can enjoy golf everyday without a cell phone, why cant people survive one round without one??

[Andy Troeger]

Wayne,
  Thanks  Happy New Year to you as well!

Tony,
   I agree...you present another portion of the issue very well.

Pat,
  The examples I provide are very realistic, just infrequent. I hate phones and very seldom have conversations lasting over 1-2 minutes. I also never get important messages that I have to return immediately. But I believe that I can happen.

  However, in defense of your position, many of the people that might actually have a defensable reason to need to return a call are likely the type that might have 4-5 messages. By the time they return even one call you're looking at probably 5 minutes minimum.
  I also agree with your thoughts, however, that most people don't keep their phones on silent and don't follow what are realistically simple guidelines. I have my phone on vibrating or silent mode all day long...that way if it rings and I can answer I do...if not I call back when I can. Its not hard...but many people don't think of the effect on others and use them in a rude manner. It is the same offenders time and again. I won't dispute that. For that reason some policies are probably necessary, I would just hope they would be reasonable. To me, the policies at Secession and East Lake seem a little overboard, but I'm sure they are effective.

  I wish I agreed that 30-40 rounds of golf per year is a lot. Some members of my family would agree with you, however
 

[Andy Doyle]

"Statistically, that's a bogus excuse.
In all the cell phone use I've observed, not one of them was a medical emergency."

"Point being there is almost no time where there will be a medical emergency on a course ... "

You've got to be kidding me.  Because you all haven't observed emergencies on the golf course, they don't happen?

I, too am opposed to personal use of cell phones on the golf course, but I think it is prudent and responsible to carry a phone with you - certainly either silenced or turned off.  Many types of serious accidents and injuries can and do occur on golf courses - injuries from balls and clubs, cart accidents, lightning, heart attacks, etc. - potentially quite a distance from the nearest assistance.

Particularly in the case of heart related accidents (all too common among the golfing demographic), time is a crucial factor - the faster help can be summoned (Emergency Medical Services, automatic external defibrillator (AED), etc) the better the chance for survival.  As an example:

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=47010

I've never personally witnessed a life-threatening emergency on a golf course, but the father of one of my best friends died of a heart attack while playing golf.  This was 10-12 years ago before everyone had a cell phone.  I'll bet his family would have appreciated it if someone in his group could have called 911 immediately and summoned an AED from the clubhouse.

Andy

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