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John Kavanaugh

Sentimentality...does it matter..
« on: December 31, 2005, 07:12:22 PM »
What are some examples of sentimentality that plays into the greatness of a course...

Mike McGuire

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2005, 07:20:30 PM »
When I think of Augusta National ...masters moments come to mind.

JN's last win ...or Crenshaw breaking down after his win.

Or sitting right behind the tee with my son watching  Player almost ace it  on 16 followed by Arnold  doing the same.

not sure if this is an answer to what your asking...

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2005, 07:32:46 PM »
I think it definitely plays a role - people rarely truely hate a course they play well at or have shot a career round at, or got a hole-in-one at...

Nick Pozaric

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2005, 08:03:20 PM »
Pebble Beach, Augusta, are two places that it would really come into play.  We have seen the course on TV hundreds of times and then when you get a chance to play there yourself and walk where they walk, hit the shots they hit, etc.  you really feel it

Steve Pieracci

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2005, 10:39:11 PM »
That's kind of a "chicken or the egg" question.  The courses are already proclaimed great, then you go to find out why.  My experience is going to the great course to celebrate.  My dad took me to Pebble when I graduated high school, we went again when I finished college.  I went back when I turned 40.  For me, the sentiments are more about the people you are with and the experiences rather than the course.

I have never been to ANGC, but I remeber who I watched the great finishes with.  So, if I ever go there to see a practice round, those memories will pop up all over again.          

Bill Weber

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2006, 08:45:48 AM »
Seeing the first road sign for North Platte on interstate 80 then the SH brand logo both coming and going. :'(

Tim Liddy

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2006, 09:56:29 AM »
Sentimentality:

Not to get too heavy but;

To me, when we look to our future we implant the qualities of life that we value most deeply from our personal life experience.

Carefully treasuring and embodying those qualities in golf course architecture which exist, to begin with, only subjectively and emotionally in people is the kernel of this web site.

Most of my dreams about the future of golf course architecture contain echoes of a real and identifiable past.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2006, 10:23:19 AM »
Jb- Seems as though sentimentality would only enter into the evaluation if something has been altered. i.e old 5th green at PB

or mo' better

i.e.  Pacific Grove- Since I left there 4+years ago, several changes to the architecture have been implemented. Not one of them was redeeming IMO. Bunkers were nurseified, trees added to LZ's. ya know, the kind of crap that, in this information age, should've been researched.

As far as where Watson chipped in to beat Jack or Kites spot on 7, has no sentimental effect on any serious evaluation of the GCA.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2006, 03:15:06 PM »
The experiences, associations, and people that touch our lives are bound to create sentimentality when we consider the merits of a given golf course.  Perhaps you know of some particular history, legendary event that took place at a particular course that elevates your feelings about the place.  Or, you yourself had a particularly great or significant round, be it because of friends with you during the round or having played your best that elevates your further perspective on a course.  

Then there are the things that get this group of GCA enthusiasts juices moving, like actually knowing or meeting an archie that has brought in a fine course within your most active time following the subject.  I think that it may be inevitable that we pull a little harder for an archie that we think we know, and who has given us an inside look at their design ideas through participation with this on-going web site and discussions.  Whether you have met the archie personally, or you trade thoughts and establish some rapport, I don't see how you can avoid some sentimentality, even bias, when evaluating their work.  

Maybe I'm all wet and a sentimental slob, but I think these things matter to some extent.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Andy Troeger

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2006, 03:19:42 PM »
RJ,
  I agree with you, I think they do matter. On the flip side I've been to a couple of courses where my first experience was a negative one due to a rude employee. I've only had it happen twice, however it made it harder than usual to enjoy the merits of the golf course.

  Or maybe it just happened that those two courses didn't have any merits for me to see  :o

tonyt

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2006, 03:24:06 PM »
If I designed a course and had a decent construction crew to put it together, even it would get some sentimentality. But perhaps it would be limited to those who played there as a junior or member for a number of years (poor sods), or those who had a special moment there such as a last game with an ageing father or whatever and the actual venue merely was the stage and not the focus.

Some courses that evoke REAL sentimentality for some greater reasons might get a bit of a free pass in respect as a result. But they'll have done something very right in the first place to earn that free pass, and so it wasn't so free afterall.

In other words, if I built a perfectly good seaside short par 3, it would not attract the same sentimental attraction of playing it as PB#7. But PB#7 has EARNT that respect and awe. Sometimes I think we have trouble as individuals in accepting long held norms without question. Questioning it is fine, as long as we understand why the norm is highly held in the first place.

John Kirk

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2006, 02:06:22 AM »
Nice post, RJ.

Sentimentality is all about my friends and our experiences on the courses we play.  Fortunately for me, many of those memories have happened in memorable places.  There's no place like home and friends.

If I had one round left in life, and I had to choose between Pebble Beach and three strangers, or Pumpkin Ridge with three friends, I'd choose Pumpkin Ridge every time.  Ghost Creek would be the call.

Brad Klein

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2006, 07:18:33 AM »
Tim Liddy,

care to elaborate? If you could translate emotion into work, design style, architectural features and explain that, it would be interesting.

Steve Curry

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2006, 07:50:48 AM »

The use of design elements, hole concepts and style would seem to me to be very sentimental.  I have sentimental feelings when I return to places that I have worked, remembering projects and seeing changes I helped to effect.  But, I did feel awe when I first rode around Pine Valley and wonder if that was the result of all the thought, consideration and work done to design and build it.  Given that thought, going beyond all the TV and individual moments, I do think a course can exude sentimentality.
 

Brad Klein

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2006, 08:06:06 AM »
Why are most of us enamored with these places? They embody magical form, like secret gardens and the playgrounds of youthful fantasy. Some of us have, in a way, never grown up entirely, or at least been able to preserve this emotional attachment and converted it into some sort of adult pursuit - whether as designers, writers, or simply as golfers. In that sense, we are lucky to have never entirely lost the element of play - without which we'd all be nothing but corporate zombies or working in a factory.

Whenever I meet a golfer or someone who purports an interest in architecture (including a GCA poster) I make a judgment as to whether it seems they really love architecture and whether that element of play is still alive. If not, I avoid them. If I think it's there, then I warm to their interest and try to respond accordingly.

For me, golf courses have always been magical for their quality of light, the play of shadow on interesting landforms, for the escape they provided from my family growing up in NYC, for the refuge they afforded me and the ease with which I found myself spending an entire day there. I loved watching the sun break over the ground, watching the shadows give way to light, watching the elements change during the course of a day and how the rhythm afforded by the ground gave rise to different intensities of play, diverse characters, animals, plants, color and tones.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 08:18:05 AM by Brad Klein »

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2006, 08:15:48 AM »
Nice post Brad!  You paint an immediate and colorful picture.  By your last paragraph I found myself reminiscing of similar experiences – a form of sentimentality that does matter.  

JC

Andy Troeger

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2006, 09:24:54 AM »
Brad,
  Good post. I've always thought that maybe I put too much emphasis on how a course looks. This might be why I always love courses that feel like they are in the middle of nowhere with no houses, buildings, or anything else in sight. There are courses in Tennessee that aren't that great really that I go back to just for the settings. On a grander scale I could spend forever playing the River Course at Blackwolf Run.
  I also tend to like parkland settings due to my home course growing being one. Even though it was in the middle of the city the trees helped seclude it from the outside world. I don't get that on courses that feel like they are in a housing development.

Tim Liddy

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Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2006, 02:16:50 PM »
Brad,

I think when we look to build a new golf course (or remodel and existing golf course) we try and reinforce the aspects of golf course heritage that we like. The values of strategy, naturalness, long views, lack of pretension, etc.

Our dreams about great golf course of the future contain all the best qualities of the past, much in the same way as new baseball stadiums have retreated back into the great examples of the past.

The future is scary enough; we do not need to see it in our recreation time. The higher tech we get the lower tech we need to secure our fragile physiology.

Each detail of how a golf course is built, the edge of a bunker for example, can be critical to the quality of the entire golf course experience. You cannot have 10 foot wide concrete cart paths or large artificially shaped features and accomplish this feel. The golf course is a pitiless mirror.  It tells us truthfully what the club (or owner) thinks about itself, what it values most and the things it does not value.

Paul Payne

Re:Sentimentality...does it matter..
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2006, 11:03:43 PM »
Hate to say it but I think Cog Hill fits this catagory. Not that it is a bad course, I just don't think it deserves the reputation it has gotten. It is long and tough but really not all that memorable. I would consider it as a course ranked maybe 10 in Illinois but not on the GD top 100 list where it at least used to reside. It still may be on the 100 you can play list.

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