"Unplayable Courses"

[plabatt]

Mike
The course is Copper Hills, northern Oakland County MI.  Half section of land, purchased, planned, constructed, and managed by one individual and his wife.

Peter

[Wayne Freeman]

I've only been to Scotland once, and although I didn't think the courses were unplayable (except when we had 40mph winds at Prestwick and Turnberry), certainly courses like Muirfield with a fair amount of rough, and definitely Carnoustie (read Carnasty) with its carries over gorse and blind tee shots are ballbusters for higher handicap players.  And I thought Gullane #1 was about as much as anyone could handle in only moderate wind.

[Mark_F]

George Pazin,

I too think that playing 12 or so holes maybe 8-10 shots over par, then maybe having a mini meltdown on a few holes is typical of middle to high handicappers.  

And it doesn't necessarily happen on the hardest holes, either.

Sean:

You get some interesting perspectives on the playability of different links courses.  I found Carnoustie okay, but thought Birkdale much more penal, which wasn't what I was expecting at all.

[Chris Kane]

Mark, your home course is the perfect example of an "unplayable course".  Most mid to high-handicap players wouldn't finish a round there  

[PThomas]

I will nominate my friend Shivas "favorite' : Tamarack - he calls it Tamahack - in suburban Chicago..this is a public course

water comes into play on 15 holes, and if I remember correctly (only been there 1 or 2x, the last being about 10 years ago) it's pretty wide open and exposed to the wind

I'd love to have the ball concession there!

[Sean_A]

Tom

I agree about rough being a seasonal disease.  My comments were directed more toward thinning rough out every few years or widening the fairways.  I suspect that fairways have been narrowed over the years, but I may be totally off base.  Granted there are some courses which aren't allowed to alter the rough due to wildlife considerations.  Harlech is a case in point and in my experience their rough is nearly always nasty.

Mark

I find Carnasty to be playable and very difficult.  The bunkers are very much of the gathering type.  Little ridges and folds lead balls directly into sand.  There are also some difficult driving holes.  Water creeps into play on a handful of shots.  Carnasty is quite a complex course which requires strength and mind to be successful.  

Of the two I prefer the more modern approach of Birkdale (though I still consider Carnoustie a modern style links).  It strikes me as a much more straightforward course.  I can fully understand why folks are enamoured with Carnoustie.  It has bags of character and is more unique than Birkdale could ever be.  Strange because Carnasty ticks a load of boxes, but I could never be a fan.  

Remember to take my comments with a grain of salt because I generally don't tend to enjoy championship tests.  Probably because I don't like getting the back of my neck burnt.  I prefer the hit it, find it quickly and hit it again type course.  

Ciao

Sean

[Mark_F]

Chris,

Neither would most low handicappers.

I had to hit Brian's shots for him on ten and thirteen, or else we'd still be there.

And that was 3-4 weeks ago.

I'm off to Barnbougle next week.  We'll see how playable that is for the mid-handicapper.

Hopefully the wind stays away for at least one of my rounds there.

Sean:

I find your take on Carnasty interesting.

Maybe it was just the seasonal rough you are talking about, but I found I could miss the fairways at Carnoustie - not by a lot, mind you - and still have some sort of shot in.

Birkdale, you missed a fairway by an inch and you were better off collecting blackberries to make some jam, rather than llooking for your ball.  

And since when is it possible to get the back of your neck burnt in the UK?

It certainly isn't possible in Wales.

[John Kirk]

Quick comment:  I thought Carnoustie was just OK when I played it.  Sort of a giant municipal course.  Perhaps the 45 degree, 35 mile per hour conditions tempered my enthusiasm.  Gosh it was awful outside.

[Sean_A]

When thinking about these Open venues and certain other highly touted links I have to keep reminding myself that we are talking about some heavy cream.  In the majority of cases, if any of these courses were close to one's home that would be THE course to play.  I find myself nit picking only because I have choice when on holiday.  It almost always comes down to one's experience which tips the scales because there isn't much between the quality of these courses.

Ciao

Sean

[John Kirk]

I hated to see this thread drop down.

I played Carnoustie in September and the rough was green and thick, very difficult.  Earlier that week I played Royal Dornoch, and the long looking but wispy fescue rough there was perfect.

In either case I see these courses as eminently playable for mid to high handicappers.

How playable are some of the Florida courses with lots of water?  Is Doral-Blue playable for the average guy?  Or PGA National?

[Mike Boehm]

Mike
The course is Copper Hills, northern Oakland County MI.  Half section of land, purchased, planned, constructed, and managed by one individual and his wife.

Peter

Thanks, Peter.  I actually played out at Copper Hills last summer, and I think you are right that it is probably unplayable for a lot of golfers.  Actually, a group of my father's friends also gave it a shot last summer and vowed not to go back due to the difficulty and forced carries.

I played the Hill-Marsh, and did not get a chance to see the Jungle, which I have heard is the most severe of them all.  If you are not sure where your ball is going, a day at Copper Hills will be a long one.

Mike

[plabatt]

Mike

The reaction of your father's friends is the typical reaction to the forced carries.  
The Jungle #6 is the poorest hole of the 27 at Copper Hills; built on marginal land it, is an all or nothing par 4 with the most difficult green to hold.  Hard to explain, but the green was dozed out on the back side of a hill that falls away to marsh land.  The green is blind to the second shot.  So any shot that is short or left will carom across the green and into the marsh.  In addition the lower front of the green is sepatated upper back of the green by a buried elephant.  This may explain the occasional divots on the lower portion of the green.
Other than #6, the Jungle may be the most enjoyable nine at Copper Hills.  From the tips it is just under 3000 yds, but as you noted, you have to know where to hit the ball.  To score on the Jungle, your second shot has to be in position to attack a green location- not necessarily the hole.  Long hitters can shoot a good score on the Jungle whereas the Hill nine is always a challange from any tee.  
The greens at Copper Hills have subtle breaks built into them.  Putts are Rock Hudson, they look straight, but they aren't.  They are well sited with very few bunkers.  The green at Hill #9 is the most notorious.  Situated on a peninsula projecting into wetlands, it requires a 100 yard carry to be dry.  This hole more than any other discourages golfers from returning to the course.

Copper Hills, challanging-yes, playable-no.

Peter

[George Pazin]

George, I don't question your veracity but with equitable stroke contol and the overzealous way handicaps are generated how can your handicap remain at 22? I am a 5 and the last ime I looked at my scores almost half were over 80.  

1) I haven't kept my handicap the last few years due to a lack of play (work, injuries, life intruding), so when I list my typical scores, keep that in mind.

2) When I was keeping my handicap regularly, I simply punched in my score at my home course. As JohnV will attest (he's seen my play there), it is a very playable course for everyone. I think the slope is something like 115. It is forgiving to the n-th degree. I played probably 90+% of my round there, and could routinely score in the low 90s.

Beyond that, I couldn't tell you whether my handicap index is even remotely accurate. I'm honestly not even clear which direction you're questioning. I'm inferring that you think it is artificially low, and I will say that based on my play the last few years, it is. When I was teeing it up regularly, I could post enough rounds in the 90s to keep it where it was.

* Just re-read your post for a fourth time, and now I think maybe you're saying my index is artifically high. I think this is probably due to the easy course that most of my scores were posted on. I'd tell you to ask others on board who've teed it up with me for an assessment, but I fear that if it comes out, I might have to pull out the sword and fall on it. At least I play fast.

JohnV -

You're correct, in that you have to start somewhere when developing a course ratings formula. I guess my experience just tells me how difficult it is to "formulize" golf.

Tom D -

It's been awhile, but I wouldn't really call Inniscrone "unplayable", but, as I stated earlier to Kyle, it's certainly less playable than a lot of older courses.

[Marc Haring]

I disagree about the rough at links courses having to be so penal for environmental reasons. I would suggest that it can and should be mown annually with the cuttings removed. This will reduce the nutrients held within the soil and produce a thinner, wispier rough, which is actually of much greater environmental benefit. A nutrient poor soil with an open sward allows different species to proliferate and also favours rare plants instead of the ones that simply survive by swamping everything else out.

I played one great links course this year where the rough was simply impossible and the fairways like the proverbial single file jobs Trevino used to talk about. The place was dead when we played it on a beautiful summers evening. They had only 5 people enter their July Medal of last year and three of those NR’d! You’d of thought they would get the message.

I also heard stories about Saunton this year that were alarming. A group of our members went over there and frankly did not have a good time. No one played anywhere near their handicaps and many balls were lost in the rough. Apparently one of the rangers that they employ to try and keep things moving spied a golfer that was taking ages to look for his ball. Eventually he went over and tackled the golfer explaining how he was holding up play for everyone, but the golfer replied “sod the ball, I’m looking for my clubs”!!