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Matthew Mollica

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A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« on: December 29, 2005, 06:17:46 PM »
I was talking with a friend about a new course he recently played. It was the work of a well known Australian course designer. He described the final hole as a 'typical Nicklaus 18th'.

What do you think he meant? Can you provide an educated guess of the hole's basic shape and primary features?

MM
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 06:26:01 PM by Matthew Mollica »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2005, 07:59:28 PM »
Thinking back to one of his earlier designs, Grand Cypress outside Orlando, the 9th and 18th there share a double green and the holes dogleg around a large lake with the green(s) slightly projecting into the lake.  Bailout right or left depending, both holes around 440 from the tips.  Sound like #18 at the TPC Sawgrass?
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cary lichtenstein

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2005, 08:01:01 PM »
The 18th hole at the Bears Club is a par 5, reachable in 2 by the big hitters, with water to the left and water behind the green.

The 18th hole at the Ritz is a par 4, 421 yards long, with water starting 125 yards from the green and covering the entire right side of the fairway and onto the green. Bailout area is to the left with a big Ross type dip.

Neither hole bears any resemblence to the other.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Gavrich

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2005, 10:05:17 PM »
18 at Pawleys Plantation is 443 from the tips, slight dogleg left.  Fairly narrow fairway, with a long, thin bunker down the left, starting around 190 from the green, running down to about 90 yards.  ?eft of the bunker is marsh, and you can cut the corner a bit if it's downwind, which it typically is.  Right of the fairway stand trees and pine straw.  The green complex is typical of those at PP.  the green is about 40 yards long, 18 wide.  A tree overhangs the green a little bit from the right.  Collection area just off the right of the green.  Left is a deep bunker (these are the best features at PP, in my estimate) and a pond, where you are likely to see some alligators.  The pond actually cuts into the fairway a little, just short of the green.

It completes the toughest stretch of 3 finishing holes that I've played.  A par at 18 always feels pretty good.

Pawleys is tailor-made for the golf game of Nicklaus in his prime.  Most of the holes call for high approaches, and a fade can help the player a lot.
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redanman

Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2005, 02:15:22 PM »
A typical Nicklaus eighteenth hole is either a par 4, usually longish, or a par 5, a 4 more often in my experience.

I've never seen a three par, has anyone else?  The shortest I've seen is #18 at Castle Pines CC (at 341 as I remember), now probably drivable by weaklings these days .

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Kirk Gill

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2005, 02:19:46 PM »
Quote from: redanmanŽ aka BillV on December 30, 2005, 02:15:22 PM
A typical Nicklaus eighteenth hole is either a par 4, usually longish, or a par 5, a 4 more often in my experience.

Which would be typical for pretty much any architect. Is there such an animal as a typical Nicklaus 18th? I haven't played enough of them to know..........
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Brad Klein

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2005, 02:24:06 PM »
What's meant here is probably a decade out of date with what Nicklaus has been doing, namely a bold gamblers par-5 where water plays a prominent role in the canting of the green. Two good examples of this would be Melrose 18th, with the alternate fairway and the green sitting on the water, or the 18th at Great Waters, where there's water down the entire left side and the green is partially sitting like a peninsula out there. The one recent case that comes to mind that I've seen is Mayacama's 18th. I can think of several cases from the 1980s where water plays a key role in a long-par-4 Nicklaus 18th green, most dramatically Grand Traverse Resort, The National in Southern Pines, NC., English Turn, or the aforementioned 9/18th holes at Grand Cypress North/South.
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Matthew Mollica

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2005, 09:37:48 PM »
Absolutely spot on Brad.

The friend identified 5 such holes, fitting your description exactly. As you know, and other posters have identified above, recent Nicklaus designs have moved away from this trend.

MM
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tom_Doak

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2005, 10:04:02 AM »
Matthew:

That's 5 out of 200+, although I'm sure there are a few more, I wouldn't say that's a boilerplate choice.  [The 18th holes at Cabo del Sol and the original Eldorado were long 4's along the water, too, but who could blame him for that?]

However, has anyone ever seen Jack finish with a par 4 less than 400 yards?  Or Pete Dye for that matter?  Note:  I'm not even sure I have done so, off the top of my head ... though I know we considered a par-3 18th at Stone Eagle and the client demurred [it's now the 19th].
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Tim Gavrich

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2005, 10:44:44 AM »
It seems that the golfing public always wants a 'full' last hole.  as a rule, they don't seems to like last hole on which they cannot hit driver.  Now, that said,  it would be nice to see a couple more courses with very short (sub-310 from all tees) par 4s as finishers, holes that tempt everyone to hit their best drive of the day and walk off with a birdie.

The other need, however, is drama.  So, the ideal short 4 closer needs some treachery, for the sake of settling the close matches.  Of course designers usually do this  to nearly-equal effect with par 5s at the end, but it would be very nice to see the pot mixed when it comes to finishing holes.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2005, 12:03:31 PM »
Tim:

Shortish finishing holes are definitely the exception rather than the rule, even on old courses, but there ARE several examples of short par-4 finishers on classic courses:

Inverness
Olympic (Lake)
St. Andrews
Cypress Point [it's not good but it IS shortish]
not to mention the par-3's at Pasatiempo, Garden City, and elsewhere

There are almost NO newer courses I can think of with a comparable finishing hole.  There are a hundred 18th holes at the TPC of Sawgrass for every one like Inverness.  It's just one of those things that isn't done because golfers will complain that it's not a challenging finish, and no one wants to take the chance of the customer ending the day on a bad note -- as if ending with a double bogey is not a bad note!
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Kyle Harris

Re:A Nicklaus 18th Hole
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2005, 12:07:00 PM »
T(i,o)m,

One of the best short par 4 finishers was done by Alex Findlay at Llanerch CC in Haverford. The hole measures all of 290 yards from the tips and is certainly drivable. The green is well gaurded and the slopes are treacherous.

It needed some tree removal when I played it in 1998, but with the recent Ron Forse work, I think that's been done.

I've five putted that green.  :-[

Tom,

I'll bet ending with a double bogey on a pushover short par 4 is an ever worse note!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 12:07:49 PM by Kyle Harris »
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