Pine Valley #1...probably not...

[Jordan Wall]

OK, so everyone knows Pine Valley is a really, truly great golf course. It has doglegs, forced carries, strategic options, and many great greens (18 of them).  Pine Valley has, and always has, presented the mecca of golf course design, but it is not actually a perfect course...

...Though I have never actually played Pine Valley it seems to me that there might be something missing after all.  In almost all great golf courses, there is a reachable Par-5.  Some course examples are such as the 13th at Augusta, the 18th at NGLA, and the 14th at Sand Hills.  The shortest par-5 at Pine Valley is 580 yards, and hell itself, in the form of a half-acre, prevents any player from having a go at the green.  Another thing that seems to be mssing is a long par-4.  The longest is 450-yards, which can leave just a mid-iron for most players (at least if you are good enough to play the back tees ).  While this could seem long, for most players it still not very, and many other great courses possess at least one or two or more par-4's longer then that to provide a better variety of length.  Augusta's 10th and 11th are 490yrds, and 505 yrds, respectively, while other great courses also provide par 4's over 450.  NGLA has the 7th which measures 470, and also the 10th which is 460, and Sand Hills has the 18th at 465, the 15th at 470, the second at 460, the 4th at 485, and the 10th at 470 yards.  I feel that a great strength among really good golf courses is 'the half par hole', and Pine Valley does not seem to have one.  It just seems weird to me that a #1 golf course would have NO holes with yardages between 450 and 580 yards.

Another thing about Pine Valley...
And two other top ten (but not #1(yet)) golf courses...
These are the distances to the par-four's...in yards...
Pine Valley              Sand Hills               CPC
320                          285                     289                    
340                          365                     343
345                          400                     366
365                          410                     369
390                          414                     383
390                          420                     386
425                          460                     393
425                          465                     404
430                          470                     421
435                          473                     440
445                          485
450

Par 3's

145                          150                      135
180                          200                      156
185                          215                      170
230                          220                      218

Par 5's

590                          510                      476
580                          550                      491
                               610                      521
                                                          549

Now compare the yardages of Pine Valley and a couple other great courses, and look how much better the variety of yardages are on the other courses.  Note for all courses some elevation change, but even so Pine Valley does not have the best yardage variety.

And also, Pine Valley's finish is not as good as other courses.  Though it is still stronger then most, many great courses have a better finishing stretch of holes, such as Sand Hills, Oakmont, and Pebble Beach (plus others).  A strong finish is key to a good and/or great golf course and the with the finish at PV having three straight par-4's, there is a lot more things that could happen on other courses down the stretch, such as the ones listed.  If a match were to come down to the final two holes, PV would definitely not be the best option to present a winner.

One last thing too, PV does not even have a drive-able par-4??  Driveable par-4's are key to a design and add more variety to a course.  Some great courses with driveable par-4's are Sand Hills (#7), CPC (#9), and PBGL (#4) plus other great courses.  Why does Pine Valley not have a driveable Par-4???  It is a hole that it should have, and that is for sure.

So after all this, PV should not be the #1 course.  It does not have a driveable hole, a par-5 that can be reached in two, a half-par hole, a hole with a yardage between 450 and 580 yards, not a great finish, and not the best yardage variety.  Is this really, in all reality, the best course in the nation?? the world??

Please tell me guys, why is PV #1, because I sure dont think it is...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

 Why even ask the question if you haven't played it?

[Jordan Wall]

That's the point Steve, I wanna know why...

It doesnt make sense to me...

There is nothing wrong with asking anyways, especially when I am trying to learn this stuff...

 

[Mike McGuire]

Jordon -

Is JakaB your uncle?  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jordan Wall,

I think your PV par 3 yardages are off.
Have you also considered the impact of elevation changes on each hole, and the resultant impact on playable yardage ?

PV doesn't have A driveable par 4, it has four of them,

# 1, # 6, # 8 and # 12.

As to reachable par 5's it has two.

The finishing hole is terrific, in many ways.

"Scotland's Gift", page 295 I believe, would be most informative .

[Robert Thompson]

Jordan: It is fine to ask questions, but you should have some sense of what you are talking about first.
PV, as Pat pointed out, does have a driveable four (though I don't agree there are four out there), and it has a tremendous finish.
Without having played it Jordan, I don't think you can really understand it. Sure you can comment on it, but that doesn't mean you'll bring a lot of value to the conversation.
This has been debated a lot -- instead of posting a hundred times, use the search function. It'll give you much of the info you seek.

[Mike Erdmann]

Pat, I've only played PV once so don't have the benefit of multiple rounds there, but can you really try to cut the corner on the 1st and reach the green?  

[TEPaul]

BORING!!!!

Did I say, BORING, BORING, BORING??

Look, Pal, how in the name of God can you question the raters and rankers??

Didn't you know those cats are infallible?

PVGC has been #1 for years other than that one year that some fag rater cut a deal with his fag editor and made Pebble Beach #1 for a year. But both of them got exposed and PVGC went back to where it should be.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think that Jordan is on the Cypress Point "We want to be #1" committee!  
  Someone wise once told me "Don't knock it till you've tried it."
  PV is only 6700-6800 yards from the tips. The Par fours aren't all 480+ and the par 3's are not all 230+ plus it's a par 70...not many Top 10 courses can say that.
  Lastly-Robert-THANK YOU

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Jordan Wall]

Nobody's told me why PV is #1 yet...c'mon guys...I wanna know why it's number one...and I got my yardages to PV from this profile on this site, so I dunno if my yardages are off.  And as a kid trying to figure out why PV is so good compared to other courses when it doesnt seem so based on evidence I have found I was looking for someone to explain why PV is #1.  It just doesnt make sense.  Even Sand Hills seems better and I definitely think Cypress is better.  Now if you disagree, please tell me why

[rjsimper]

Jordan -

Why is it NOT number 1?

Seems to me you cannot answer this question, as you have not played the course.

Why speculate?

[Jordan Wall]

Sorry guys, I think I understand that this was a dumb thread.  I will start to be more selective with my posts and threads..dont bother responding on this topic i now found out is stupid...please take this as a formal apology for all my stupid posts and threads, and please consider me as a whole new GCA'er who finally is starting to understand this stuff once and for all

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm all for cutting Jordan a little slack.

[cary lichtenstein]

Jordan:

If you haven't played a course, you will be attacked, deservedly so. My pet peeve is guys pontificating about things they haven't played.

It also applies to guys who ride a course on the cart path and not play or look at pictures.

Play it

[rjsimper]

I'm all for cutting Jordan a little slack.

I'm not against slack (I've certainly needed my fair share on more than a few occasions) but there's a difference between slack and handing somebody the end piece to the world's largest ball of twine.  

In a world where the very existence of ratings is argued ad nauseum, and the debating of the inclusions and exclusions from the top 10 is a fixture of the discourse for weeks following any new release of such a list, proclaiming that a course probably does not deserve to be #1 and subsequently challenging anyone who believes it holds that honor rightfully to prove themselves to someone who has never seen the track in the first place seems a bit much.

I'd rather read about what people think makes a great short par 4.  

(and yes, I do realize that my middle paragraph there is the longest sentence I may have ever written... )

[Tim Bert]

Play it

If it were that easy, then I'm sure we all would!

I don't have a problem with anyone asking questions about the greatness of a course they haven't played.  I think the real issue with the comments here is that Jordan went on to produce a mini-essay on why the course shouldn't be hailed as the greatest in the world, when he has neither played it nor many of the other candidates.

We live and we learn!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Pine Valley is incredible because it combines great shot values with incredible aesthetics.  The green complexes are all world.  However, should it rate as the best course in the world?  There are a few courses that could also fall into this elite category.  Sand Hills has such great features.  In addition, having played it in 3 totally different wind conditons, it elasticity was brilliant.  I rank Sand Hills as the best course in the World, and am on the fence with Royal Melbourne and Pine Valley.

[Wayne Freeman]

Jordan-  a couple of my thoughts.  To me, although I've only played it once, P.V. is the cathedral of golf.  It's really hard to describe how wonderfully sculpted it is without actually experiencing it. Just looking at the numbers and distances has no practical meaning.  A 7400 yrd. course in the desert, or in Colorado may play shorter than a course like the Olympic Club which at 6800+ yds. is often described as the longest short course in America (you just don't get any roll there.)  If Pine Valley isn't a perfect golf course, it comes pretty darn close.  The varied nature of the holes,the flow,the greens, and the  continuous "wow" factor makes you feel like you are one lucky son-of-a-gun to just be alive and feeling that hallowed ground under your feet.   Trying to truly pick #1 is really impossible, but you won't get much of an argument with P.V. as the top choice.  

[Sean_A]

I can understand people not wanting to give someone the time of day over a perceived bad post.  I can't understand posting that you don't want to give them the time of day.  

Folks need to lighten up.  

Ciao

Sean

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jordan,
  I'll offer you a bit of avice along Cary's lines-Play a course, walk a courese, prior to  questioning where it stands because someone on this site has probably played the course you're describing, so be ready for a rebuddle.
  Secondly, you're not allowed to bash Mr. Doak, C&C, TEPaul, Sand Hills or Friar's Head. This is only if you want to make friends!
  Welcome Jordan! You're among a good group of guys with A LOT, A LOT of knowledge!
 
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[jim_lewis]

Jordan:

Ordinarily I would be one of the first to challenge any post that presumes to judge a course that you have never played, or even seen. On the otherhand, I think it is great that someone your age has enough interest in golf course architecture to participate in this DG.

I don't think you can judge any course just by looking at the scorecard, certainly not Pine Valley. You simply have to see it to believe it, and there are very few golfers who have played it that don't think it is the best course they have ever played.

I recall that the first time I was there I stood on every tee and said "My god, what a golf hole!".  I have now been back everal times, but after playing it only once, I could remember every shot and every hole in order a year later. I have never played any other course, including most of the "great" ones that I can say that about.

To me it is not even close. The only question I have is which course is second. I hope you get to play PV some day. You have lots of time.

Jim

[Jonathan Cummings]

I've been lucky enough to play PV 30-40 times.  What Jimmy posts above hits the nail on the head.  It is THE most diverse 18 holes on one course in the game.  The rest are vying for second.

JC

[TEPaul]

"It just seems weird to me that a #1 golf course would have NO holes with yardages between 450 and 580 yards."

Jordan:

It does NOW!  

[Andy Troeger]

Jordan,
  I think where you got in trouble here is not by asking why others think that Pine Valley is #1, but by going into your long detailed (and well thought out from what information you have) rationale as to why it should not be. I think you've been beaten over the head already with how much better it is to play a course than not, so I don't have anything to add there.
  I've read some of the posts and profiles of a few top courses myself, and to be honest I still can't figure out why the heck they quite as highly thought of as the others. I would guess that's not an unusual trait, however, I'm not naming the ones that confuse me personally in order not to start a whole new thread!  
  I will say that Pine Valley and Cypress Point are not on that list for me...in fact they probably are the two courses I would most love to have the chance to play someday.

[BCrosby]

Jordan makes some good points.

PV doesn't have what people would normally consider a reachable par 5. (I don't get the greatness of the 7th in any event. The 15th is a much better par 5.)

The finish with two shortish par 4's, both with uphill approaches to semi-blind greens, is not ideal.

You could quibble about other things. PV has tree issues. Alternate greens aren't necessarily an asset to a course. PV is not perfect.

But Jim nails it. The variety of holes and shots is extraordinary, much of which is due to the way Crump and Colt used the terrain. Tees and greens are located at places that you don't usually see. There is an edginess to the routing that is hard to describe.

The result is that PV is a unique combination of comforting width and lurking disaster. Somewhere in the recesses of your brain you hear the slow drumbeat of doom even when you are standing in the middle of a 50 yard wide fairway.

My take is that PV is a bit too anachronistic to be considered the best in the US. Jordan hits on some of the reasons. Golf architecture in the US after WWI learned, grew and got better. A number of courses built after PV during the Golden Age benefited from that learning curve. There were new and more varied ways of getting strategy into the dirt. I might even be so bold as to suggest that if PV had been built on the same terrain in 1925, there would be several significant differences. Who knows.

But Jordan, let me be clear. PV is a great, great course. There is nothing like it anywhere and, as Jim said above, you will remember every shot you hit, every step you take and, even better, you will never forget the wonderful atmosphere of the place.

Bob