[Jordan Wall]

how about because when the pros play the conditions are so much better then the courses us amatuers play.  Dont you guys agree that a 75 on a regular course with regular conditions, not even bad course conditions, could be a 70 or 71 with really good course conditions??  Dont you guys think the pros would lots higher with our type course conditions???  Does this make a say, 8 hcp, a 4 or a 5???  Opinions???

PS.....This may now be an excuse for playing bad , and i need to vent because I HATE not finding my ONE good drive a round because it plugged or something

PPS.....Feel free to also vent about golf in this thread, but also talk about course conditions

[JESII]

Apples to apples, no question. But when you throw in course set-up for Tour events (rough, green speeds, hole locations) your adjusted 4 or 5 just went up to 12.

In all seriousness, yes and so does the fact that their equipment is so perfectly tailored to their games that another level of the uncertainty you and I deal with is eliminated.

[A.G._Crockett]

I think it's because they have galleries that knock down their errant shots, while mine continue on into the woods or bodies of water.  That, plus the fact that they are really, really good, and I suck.

[Jordan Wall]

Adam, check out why tour players, even Tiger, sometimes score so low.  In like 2003 or something there was an event in Texas or something but some way or another Tiger got stuck behind a boulder.  Boulder = Loose-Impedement...The gallery formed together and somehow moved the boulder for Tiger.  That'll save you 2 strokes at least

Anyways, it just shows some reasons why the pros really are scoring so low

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

What do you consider good conditions?

There are some on this website that consider Shinnecock 2004 to be where tour courses should be...

[Jordan Wall]

theres this old school movie that has a line that could represent the tour's greens...The Little Rascals...Smoother then a baby's bottom

And about the overall conditions, ask Napoleon Dynamite...Flippin Sweet

Honestly though, that is really what the conditions are like on tour.  And Kyle, that is what I consider good conditions.  I would love to putt greens that smooth, and I'm not even playing all you guys... I really do hate not finding a perfect drive in the fairway

[Jordan Wall]

this is about conditions not setup

and doesnt anyone have anything to vent about? ?

[Michael Hayes]

I would like to vent about...THE FACT THAT MY GOLF COURSE HAS HAD 13 INCHES OF FU@$ING RAIN IN THE LAST 10 DAYS...BTW that rain started as snow on ground frozen 6 inches deep...

other than that happy new year!!!

ps.  Since when did the pga tour go to rally scoring, I thought that was only in womens VB.

[Jordan Wall]

I'll vent some more...I hate playing in so much frost that you cant put your tee in the ground...especially when the frickin tee boxes smell like sewer from one street away

[Jordan Wall]

why are pros REALLY scoring so well, sorry.

what do you guys really think.  I mean, I dont think there would be all these rounds in the sixties with not-very-good conditions, if you know what I mean.

[Peter Galea]

You're kidding aren't you? Conditioning of the golf course is why the pros go low?
Ah...maybe it has to do with the 500 balls they hit a day, and the 2 hours of chipping and putting. Then too, there's the raw talent component.
You don't think that any of the guys on tour could shoot in the 60's playing with off the rack clubs, hitting off of bare ground and putting on patchy greens? I do.

[Jim Sweeney]

Two reasons:

1. Length; i.e., they are hitting so many short irons into the greens and hitting so many par 5's in two that the chances of making birdie are much higher, and

2. Conditions of the greens are so consistent (not just smooth but of consistent speed.) Imagine if the green on your first hole was a perfectly smooth 11 on the stimp, and then the secong green was exactly the same, and then the third, and so forth... And then to your delight they were the same every day...then every week.....

you'd begin making many more putts too.....


Down with the stimp meter!!!!

[Jordan Wall]

i'm saying if the conditions on are muni courses were as good as the pros then we would be our or five shots lower at least and if you did the opposite to the courses on tour then the scores would not be as good.

And Pete, there is absolutely no way that the pros would score well with crappy clubs and course conditions.  If you add bad clubs to bad course conditions, I'd say either seven or eight strokes would be added.

[Craig_Rokke]

Because they are, by far, the best.

[Jordan Wall]

I'm not gonna argue that they're good but I think you could end up seeing some new people on the PGA with conditions like you see on an average course.  The good players would still be good, but there would be a new wave of good players that might be un-heard of, and that could, say, win on the tour.

[Brent Hutto]

Friend Jordon,

I'm pretty sure you have this one all wrong. Any advantage Tiger Woods would have over John "+2 Handicap" Doe on a perfectly conditioned course would be even greater on a badly conditioned course. To be sure, Tiger Woods would shoot a couple strokes higher on a course maintained to local muni conditions rather than Tour conditions but your typical +2 Handicapper would lose even more.

The top Tour players are better at every aspect of the game than good amateur players. That includes being better at playing off scruffy lies or hardpan or dealing with unmaintained bunkers. This is like that old thread where someone tried to claim that Ben Crenshaw's putting advantage over a typical GCA'er would be lessened on really tricky, fast, contoured greens.

[Robert Thompson]

Jordan: Not to be cranky here, but have you actually ever teed it up with a PGA Tour pro? A Nationwide pro? A Canadian Tour pro?
I've played with all of them, including a guy ranked in the Top 10 in the world. I've been lucky enough to play with pros on PGA Tour courses set up for tournaments and on courses that aren't set up for tournaments. Trust me, these guys are not good because they play on the best conditioned courses. They are good because they can do ungodly things with a golf ball. Sure they save some shots because offline shots are found by the gallery or spotters. But that doesn't win major championships and one boulder moving incident does not negate the fact Tiger Woods may be the best golfer of all-time.
Let me provide one quick scenario. Two years ago I played a round with a gangly Australian who has won several times on tour. Approaching the sixth hole, a par three on a very average private course he had never seen before, he hit his tee shot right at the flag, only to find it had gone in the cup. On the following hole, a 300 yard par four that is quite reachable, he hit three wood to six inches and tapped in for eagle. Occasionally during the day I could match his drives (he plays a draw and the course was wet), but I would never in a million years be able to touch the rest of his game.
Pros are good where ever they play; that's why they are pros.

[Jordan Wall]

You guy ::s got me, but I was just having a weird thought going right through me and I had to say what I tought.  I'm not even going to try and debate this time

Now, on the other hand, doesnt anyone have to vent

[Tom Dunne]

Current GolfWorld has a pretty good feature well on putting this week, with lots of interesting insights from the pros, including this one from Loren "Boss of the Moss" Roberts:

"I don't know how many times I saw Ben Crenshaw lip out, like, a 30-footer, and as he's walking to the hole he taps down a spike mark. It was never his fault that he missed one."

So this speaks to Crenshaw's confidence, for one, but it also hints at another subtle change in golf over the past couple of decades--the advent of soft spikes. Sure, from time to time the pros still break out the steel spikes, but there are far fewer spike marks on the greens in general. Nick Seitz, in another story in the same issue, points out that the Phil-Vij "Spikegate" flap at the Masters can be understood in this context of perfect-rolling greens.

Couple of good features in there.

All that said, while I've never played with a pro, I've seen enough of them up close to know that the rest of us have never been further away from where they are right now....and not just off the tee, across the board!

[Doug Sobieski]

Jordan:

Here's a short story to illustrate how conditions impact good players(and I've mentioned this on here previously during a similar conversation).

Damon Green caddies for Zach Johnson on the PGA Tour (used to caddie for Scott Hoch). Prior to becoming a caddie, Damon was one of the best mini-tour players in Florida. In the early '90's, he was probably in the top 3 on the Orlando area mini tours (which were really all that existed in the US), along with Bart Bryant and Chris DiMarco. The mini tours played (and still play) some pretty scrappy golf courses. The guys winning the events could shoot WAY under par, regardless of the conditions. One year Damon received a sponsor's exemption into the Bay Hill Invitational. After he shot about 158 to miss the cut by a mile, I asked him what the difference was (he was a member at Bay Hill, and almost NEVER shot over in the regular game there from the back tees). He told me that the way they set up the golf course for a tour event was so much more difficult than any course he regularly played (and we're talking public courses where he could shoot 65 fairly regularly), he couldn't compete. He was in over his head. And this guy would probably be +4 or +5 at Bay Hill on a daily basis.

For the most part, when Tour players tee it up at run of the mill public courses, the course record is in serious jeapordy, regardless of conditions. Another buddy of mine (Ryder Cup/President's Cup Player) went to visit a brand new course where a friend of ours was the head pro. Brand new course, so conditions were pretty scary. Naturally, he whipped it around in 64 blows without breaking a sweat. Course record. Every day conditions that most of play are SOOOOOOO easy for the guys on Tour, it's ridiculous.

When I try to explain to people how good the guys on Tour are, for starters I tell them that a scratch player at a typical club would need 3 a side from the guys struggling to keep their cards. On a golf course where I might shoot 68 or 69 once in a while, those guys have a realistic chance to break 60. You are going to have to trust us on this one Jordan. I've got a lot of friends that play on Tour, and it's scary how much better they are than you could ever imagine.

Please listen to Robert, Shivas, et al. It's not the conditions.

Regards,

Doug

[Jordan Wall]

Like I said, I wont even try to debate any more.  But would it be fair to say, judging from what I've heard, that all conditions are conditions for the pros, at least as far as the course is concerned???  Sorry this is so one sided, but I had to throw this topic out there.

By the way does anyone think amatuer scores would be better if 'conditions' were better?

[Michael Moore]

On the following hole, a 300 yard par four that is quite reachable, he hit three wood to six inches and tapped in for birdie.

If this guy is so good, how is it that he whiffed his first shot?

[Robert Thompson]

My stupid mistake, Mr. Moore. Of course he made eagle. The player, in case you were interested, was Stuart Appleby. Quite fun to play with and what an amazing two hole stretch. That said, I have no idea what he scored overall. Wouldn't have been as low as one might have thought considering he went 1-2.

[Jordan Wall]

Robert dont worry we get the point, or at least you have done well in explaining it to me.  It is just hard to imagine players being that good, if you know what I mean

[tonyt]

Jordan,

I was a full time caddy on the Australasian Tour for some years. Most weeks, though not all, we played on courses set up with pristine conditions as you may guess. But set up in a manner that the members would have had their highest winning comp score of the year on it. I rarely saw a tour course in tournament week that more than 5-10% of average golfers in a comp field could have dreamed to play to their handicap on.

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