Vertical Spines in Greens

[Kyle Harris]

In my incessant doodling of green complexes I've come across an idea I don't think I've ever seen in practice.

Using a long spine in the vertical (used here to mean along the hole and not across it) that extends from the green down the fairway for maybe 30-40 yards.

Here's a picture (very rough and done in MS Paint):


Under firm and fast conditions, the spine would repel all but the most well struck and executed shots toward the bunkers or in areas that would leave an awkward (but ultimately doable) short approach.

I like it, it forces the golfer to either challenge the front left bunker in order to run the ball on the green or to challenge the spine. It also give the golfer the choice of laying up before the spine (bring the bunker into play again).

I could see this used on a long approach to a par 4 or a short par 5.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kyle,

I think it's a clever idea.

I've seen the feature within the confines of a green, but never extending forward beyond the putting surface.

[mike_malone]

 I wonder if #15 at Royal County Down has a feature like this. I can remember watching with amazement how my runup shot just "magnetically" was pulled to the right.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

I have too, often referred to as a buried elephant or something along those lines.

Rees Jones seems to work them in on his courses (at least the three Rees courses I've played), but as you said, they are wholly contained in the green.

Mike,

I was thinking of St. Andrews (Old) myself, but I believe all those spines run perpendicular to the line of play (12th green, for example).

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kyle,

Years ago I began a thread about frontal, deflecting mounds and how they affect play.

I think # 18 at Turnberry might have one and # 1 at Boca Rio has a small one.

Likewise, I also thought of the buried elephant, but, the combination resulting in the configuration of a tiered feature that begins in front of the green and extends back into the putting surface is brilliant.

The deflecting nature of the spine is marvelous.

The need for precision on the approach and the varied possibilities on recoveries is extremely appealing.

I would be surprised if a viewing architect didn't incorporate this feature into a future design.

CBM, SR and CB would be proud of you.

Great work.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Thank you very much.

How about the mound in front of the 4th at St. Andrews (Old)?

The motivation that ultimately lead to the above design also has a similar mound. The current 11th on PSU White by Park, but as the green is mowed now, the mound has little bearing on play. I was working on a different concept regarding the presentation of green fronts (another thread to be started later today) and I just happened to work this out of that.

11th Green: PSU White (Park)


The mound in question is to the right of what was the right side of the original fairway. I think it was originally cut as fairway, with the corner of the green anchored on the other side. That's an old bunker I'd like to see restored in the foreground.

[Bill_McBride]

This is very effective on short par 4s (think #12 at Rustic Canyon, although a bit different orientation of the spine), because who wants to lay up (in front of the green) on a short par 4??

The result is on line pitches that get repelled over or to the right if the shot is not just perfect.

Defending par at the greenside at its finest!

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

I think this makes a lot of sense.  The Old Course has a number of mounds/ridges fronting and integrating with some of the greens.  Flynn used them.  On the top of my head, consider the 3rd and 7th at Rolling Green.  The third, being a short par 3 still plays along the ground for most juniors, seniors and ladies.  With a strong breeze (into or with) a good play for any caliber of player is a precise punch shot landing the ball short of the green.  There is a very spine that propels the ball right to left if not played along the right edge of the green.

I call this sort of feature, which I agree is not used nearly enough, a longitudinal spine as it is along the line of play.  Feel free to use the term without royalties  

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

With latitude such as yours... I shall.  

The way the bunker sets up on 7 at Rolling Green figured into my non-rough sketch of this hole - also the angle Flynn favored in integrating a greenside bunker with the green/fairway joint.

[wsmorrison]

I think you are ready to leave the monastery, grasshopper!

[cary lichtenstein]

You just drew the 16th green at The Ritz, except it has one more fall off area to the back left, and a 12 foot deep trap

[Pat Howard]

I think it's a great idea to extend contours in greens out into the fairway to make approaches more difficult. And you're right, we don't see them very often. When done right they could provide challenges that would really make the golfer decide how to best play the approach shot. The one example of this that immediatley came to mind can be found right here on the GCA in pictures of the Friar's Head course in NY. although the contours extend more horizontally than vertically, they certainly influence all incoming shots.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/FH5b.jpg

PS - If anyone could tell me how to insert the pic instead of the link, it would be greatly appreciated!

[wsmorrison]

Pat:

Insert (img) and (/img) before and after the URL for the photograph except use [ and ] rather than ( and ).  So do this:

(img)http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/FH5b.jpg(/img)

Except with brackets rather than parenthesis:

Like this:  

[JSlonis]

Steven Kay used this feature on the 17th hole at Scotland Run GC.  The 17th hole is a very long par 4.  There is a spine that runs off the back part of a bunker about 30-40 yards short of the green.  The spine bisects the fairway approach and continues to about the middle of the green.  It makes approach shots that land short very difficult to run up properly.  I'm not so sure this is a good thing.

I think the spine feature may have been softened some since the initial course opening.  As I recall, it was fairly severe at first.

[Kyle Harris]

Jamie,

This would be a subtle feature at most. Landing on top of the spine is reasonable, and the less-than-adequate shot would be rejected to an area that would leave an awkward, but not impossible chip or pitch.

[Kyle Harris]

The more I think about this concept, the more I go back to my evolving theory on the ideas of "rejections areas," "collection areas," and "contour" and how when combined effectively, or more often, used in solo correctly they create interest and defend par around the green and off the tee.

This would be an example of a rejection area. The misstruck shot is told "not here" but where it ends up isn't necessarily predictable. Using contour and other golf features effectively allow the architect to determine how much luck and interest is involved where the shot ultimately ends up.

In my case, the "not here" would give the golfer a bit of a challenge in making par, but nothing impossible.

I've thought of making the very top of the spine a collection area that would help funnel a ball on to the green, and perhaps cozy up next to certain hole locations, depends on the angle of attack. This would allow a wily course set up to have different angles favored on different days.

Oh, the possibilities!

[Michael Moore]

The sixth hole at the Freeport Country Club has this feature bending gently to the right on a 210 yard par three, slightly downhill, no bunkers, very steep as the spine blends into the front and left of the green.

Real nice golf hole, super challenge.

[Bill_McBride]

The nastiest, and most subtle, vertical spine I've played recently is the one in the middle left center of #13 at Cypress Point.  Here's how I know:  I hit a putt just a little bit softer than desired, and just a little bit more right than desired, got on the wrong side of the spine and wound up 16' right of the cup!  It didn't look that potentially disastrous!  

After my struggles on 11 and 12 and hitting a solid drive and 6-iron on 13, this was painful!  

[Pat Howard]

Thanks Wayne, you have truely earned your YaBB GOD title!

[wsmorrison]

You're welcome, Pat.  For the longest time I had picture posting envy.  Craig Disher was my mentor and I try to share the wealth.  Let's see some pictures from your neck of the woods sometime soon.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kyle,

As a related issue, how would your green fare if it was reversed, with the spine flowing out the back of the green ?

I would seem to make the left and right rear sections of the green very difficult to get to.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

I actually slept on this one. When I first read it last night I thought, "no, too difficult."

This morning's lucidity has me thinking otherwise. I think the reverse usage of the green would be quite effective when the approach was coming from above the green, meaning the golfer would see everything they were getting themselves into. Frankly, I'd love to see golfers try to throw darts at a green configured like that one (with the well-struck ones holding and the not so well struck ones being subject to the back of the green.

I've long contended that the back of the green complex is the most neglected area of the golf course from a design point.

Another usage I see practical is on a short par five, where this green would slope away from the golfer. It would provide the oppurtunity to reach in two with a correct run up shot and anything going over the green would be subject to the rejection area the spine creates.

I also thought of using an extremely low profile green where the spine was higher than the putting surface and therefore visible over the green from the fairway.

[Kyle Harris]

BTW Pat,

I had thought the same thing when reading the Reverse Teir thread... your motivation as well?

[Paul Carey]

I like the idea and the extension of the spine to the fairway but it reminds me too much of a typical Rees Jones green.  He loves those spines in the greens and relies on them way too much.  If used once and took advantage of the extension to the fairway I think it would work.  

[Pat Howard]

Just wanna see if this works

Overlake CC - #6 from the upper tee.