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David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« on: December 23, 2005, 08:19:58 AM »
Hey guys,

What do you think of this one? I understand where the achitect is coming from but personally I think it sucks although I am sure many will just accuse me of being a traditionalist.

The architect wrote: "The original hole was being compromised by the length that the modern player hit the ball.  The open front of the green did not challenge the player to hit a high shot.  Further more, the hole was weekened by the slope of the green.  Too often in member play, scratch players were unable to two putt from above the hole.  The re-designed hole gives players the option of several lines off the tee, depending on whether they are willing to take on the fronting bunker.  More pin positions have been opened up on the flatter green which is fairer considering the increased difficulty in reaching the target.  THe track through the fairway has been hidden with a feature bunker in the valley which together with the better "framing bunkers" at the green, improves the aesthetics of the hole.

Before and after photos



Merry Christmas.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 08:26:31 AM by David_Elvins »
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Kelly Blake Moran

Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2005, 08:32:24 AM »
David,

Come on this is some sort of joke.  Its December 25 not April 1st.  there is no way those two pictures are of the same site.  If it is true how can you possibly understand where the designer is coming from.  You would have to be a European to be this diverse in your understanding of others   ;D
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 08:33:41 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Andy Troeger

Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2005, 08:34:07 AM »
The thing that stands out in the second picture are the completely artificial looking mounds. They look so...contrived.

Sounds like the holes play very differently as well with more emphasis on a well played high iron shot as opposed to the multiple ways to play before (high or low) and less chance of having trouble once on the green.

I'll take the original...or the left picture if Kelly is right and they aren't even the same hole :)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 08:35:30 AM by Andy Troeger »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2005, 08:40:20 AM »
David,

Come on this is some sort of joke.  Its December 25 not April 1st.  there is no way those two pictures are of the same site.  If it is true how can you possibly understand where the designer is coming from.  You would have to be a European to be this diverse in your understanding of others   ;D

No, I don't really understand where the designer is coming from, I was really just trying to be diplomatic.  If the site looks different it could be due to the clearling of vegetation behind the green for the creation of greater "spectator view points".  Once the vegetation comes back it will look better, Maybe??
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2005, 08:52:37 AM »
there is no way those two pictures are of the same site.  

Yeah, you are right, they are not the same sight.  The photo on the right still has to be one of the most alarming photos in golf course architecture though, doesn't it?  Especially when the photo on the left is from a few miles up the road and an example of what could be done on such land.  I hope someone found it amusing.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 09:01:57 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2005, 09:36:30 AM »
I could see bringing some bunkering/waste areas more into the center of the picture, as they did. Especially if it is, for instance, a reachable par 5 (although those look a ways away from the green). I'm normally pretty opened minded, but that renovation looks awful. Who's the artist?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 09:37:00 AM by Craig_Rokke »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2005, 09:51:26 AM »
I do know where the photo on the left is -- it's the fifth green at Royal Melbourne (West).  I'm pretty sure they haven't changed it this year or I would have heard about it before now.

I'm thankful that I have no idea where the right-hand photo is from.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2005, 10:48:36 AM »
Frankly David I didn't take a lot of time matching the pictures to determine whether it was the same site, it was my gut reaction that there was no way anyone associated with the course on the left would allow what happened on the right.  Although it does iillustrate some of what probably goes on in renovation work.  I'm working with a club that got raped a few years ago and they just now realize it and as the superintendent and I were discussing the other day it is just downright sad that this happens to what was a great course and a great bunch of guys, members, and it really is heartbreaking to see that kind of money spent and the grotesques changes that are made.  

As an aside it is interesting to see a course evolve.  I just got the book on the Hotchkin Course by Latham and having given a cursory look to the hole by hole comparisons of the evolution of the course there are some marked changes in my view but apparently changes done so in a careful manner that has preserved or even enhanced the quality of the course.  In some instances I am not so sure about improvement but it would be interesting to hear what others whom are familiar with the course have to say in terms of the changes and the evolution of the course.  Others talk passionately about preservation but here is a course that has changed itself somewhat but still is rated highly in the world.

In any event great side by side comaprison David, and I think it brings up many important issues related to renovations.  Even some of the best renovations of the year you see in mags raises an eyebrow.

Merry Christmas

tonyt

Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2005, 08:14:14 PM »
The pic on the right is of a course I have chastised heavily in a rather uncomplimentary review on an Australian website. I took nearly a dozen photos of that very hole to use as evidence.

It is a course that among other gems in the area, has struggled to find its market niche or desired number of patrons, and so sought out a change in feel to give it a point of difference. The changes were to reflect a plush resort course feel, and in a number of instances, the archie "over-achieved' in seeking a change in the ambience by tricking it all up ridiculously. The hole was formally a challenging uphill longish par 3, with fair bunkering and interest, and is now a freak show that requires an immoral (for a public course) uphill 100 yard carry for the junior, average woman or unprofficient male over the huge trap lip to avoid the remainder of the hole becoming utterly unplayable for them.

This course used to have some very fine understated green complexes and some marginally more dramatic ones that still worked on what was an average but pleasant course to play. Now, on each tee you find yourself looking for where to put your coin in the slot and wait for the safety bar to drop over your front as a seat belt.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2005, 09:29:41 PM »
The sad thing is there are probably people who think the hole on the right looks excellent.


David,

What do you think the architect was thinking when he saw his 'beautiful' renovation? Did he stand back & think, "Man, I'm good."  :o

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2005, 09:37:59 PM »
David,

Thinking about it further. Next time I'm in Melbourne you & I will have to have a game at E.R. My shout.

Sometimes I just have to satisfy my morbid curiosity & visit a train wreck to help with perspective.

Plus, I’m also just a bit weird.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2005, 10:46:15 PM »
Tom,

Believe it or not -the hole is about 2 drive minutes from St Andrews Beach.

Matthew Delahunty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2005, 11:39:18 PM »
The hole on the right has one thing going for it just at the moment - it's open for play.

redanman

Re:End of Year Awards - Worst renovation???
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2005, 11:20:43 AM »
The second photo looks like what I've heard a
blow-up doll looks like.

Can those hillocks be pneumatically enlarged?