If you had to build a par 4 where you could beat Tiger....

[Peter Pallotta]

I'd make it SO short a par 4 that Tiger and I BOTH could drive the green, except that I'd actually be using a driver whereas Tiger would have to take something off, say, a 2 iron, and that fade might not fade enough, or too much. Then, if he was having 'distance control' issues that day, and also feeling a little under the weather, we'd both have putts for par. It's not impossible that I would make mine....

Peter

[Ben Voelker]

I'll take any hole, Tiger blindfolded, with a little strategic manuvering of the tee boxes on my part, and no Stevie to help him out.  I think I can get him now

There's no way in hell I could build any hole in my wildest dreams that I could beat Tiger on.

[Mark Bourgeois]

If we had a hot putter, we'd have a shot on the 1st at TOC! LOL LOL. Just need to find "an unfortunate person"...

Tiger's play of the 1st at TOC:
4th round, 2000:
His first shot is an iron which comfortably finds the centre of the fairway. His wedge to the green spins to within nine feet of the pin. But he misses his birdie attempt to the left of the cup.

3rd round, 2005:
Tiger Woods, pristine in white roll neck and matching cap, is also given a generous recption and he follows suit with an iron safely down the sun-drenched fairway …Tiger's putt for a birdie from around 15 feet is six inches short and he also begins with a par-four

4th round, 2005:
Tiger Woods, beginning with a black sleeveless pullover on top of his trademark final day red shirt, hits his opening tee shot a little heavily with an iron but it is in no trouble in the centre of the fairway…Into the wind with a wedge, Woods is pin high at the first but over 20 feet from the flag….Tiger's opening putt slips past the left edge and races a yard by, but after gesticulating to an unfortunate person who has done something they shouldn't, he holes out confidently for a par.

[Steve Curry]

John,

Can I change the rules to include a little pre-putt wrestling of some sorts, I may be able to out wrestle him?  

Are you going to our show in Atlanta this year?  

Steve

[John Kavanaugh]

Tiger has bogeyed the first hole at Pinehurst #2 three out of the eight times he played it in the 1999 and 2005 US Opens...I have played the hole twice and never made anything but par...Short par four with a tricky green is the ticket.  As a qualifyer..he actually went par, par, double bogey, birdie, par, par, bogey, bogey...

[Tom Huckaby]

Interesting.... John and anyone else, why would you want it to be a tricky green?

Not that I'm hearkening back to a long-ago many-paged thread in which quite a few thought I was insane, but well... I'd just be interested in the reasoning.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tiger has bogeyed the first hole at Pinehurst #2 three out of the eight times he played it in the 1999 and 2005 US Opens...I have played the hole twice and never made anything but par...Short par four with a tricky green is the ticket.

John, looks like you could make it at least through local qualifying!

But doesn't a harder hole highlight our weaknesses? I've played #2 a number of times, even when the grandstands were going up in prep for the '99 Open, but not when the greens were how the USGA wanted them.  I would think that, in those circumstances, the margin for error is comfortably outside my abilities yet within Tiger's.  Advantage: Tiger.

Wouldn't we do better with a flat green and surrounds that offered no great penalty for error, yet no great advantage for success?

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha!

Mark is getting to the meat of the matter, re greens.

Mark, there was a LENGTHY topic on this quite awhile back. Not that I at all want to go through the torturous debate AGAIN, but my contention was that the trickier the green, the more we both miss putts, giving me the advantage over Tiger, who would make far more than I on a flat green.  My assumption is that we both miss our first and I can match him with the two putt.

Many found me insane for this.  I remain confident in my sanity and choose to believe they missed the point.  

[JWL]

My hole would be the following:

360 yd Par 4
Gnarly waster bunker with no rakes starting at 90 yds from the green or at the 280 mark of the tee.
I would hit drive 270 leaving with 100 yds. exactly to the pin which would be on the back portion of the green with a steep dropoff to long rough grass hollow over the green..5 steps behind the pin.  
The hole would play into the wind and the pitch 5 steps in front of the pin would exceed 2%.    
I would be able to hit my drive 270, leaving 100 exactly to the pin.   Since I don't spin the ball a lot, I can fly my sand wedge exactly 100 yds. 80 % of the time, leaving myself with a birdie putt under 10 feet 50% of the time.
Since Tiger would have to lay up off the tee, we would have approximately the same shot into the green after his stingeg 2 iron or 3 wood.   Since he spins the ball a lot, he would have to play past the pin to draw the ball back to pin high.   But, there isn't room because of the drop off behind the green.   If he lands his shot pin high into the wind, he will draw the ball back to the front of the green and have a long birdie putt.   He will be forced to hit some kind of dead hands half wedge which, even for Tiger, is very difficult to judge distance.
Yep, I could play Tiger even or beat him most times on this hole.   That is the only one I can think of, however. that I would even have a chance.   But, I would bet on me on this hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tiger has bogeyed the first hole at Pinehurst #2 three out of the eight times he played it in the 1999 and 2005 US Opens...I have played the hole twice and never made anything but par...Short par four with a tricky green is the ticket.

John, looks like you could make it at least through local qualifying!

But doesn't a harder hole highlight our weaknesses? I've played #2 a number of times, even when the grandstands were going up in prep for the '99 Open, but not when the greens were how the USGA wanted them.  I would think that, in those circumstances, the margin for error is comfortably outside my abilities yet within Tiger's.  Advantage: Tiger.

Wouldn't we do better with a flat green and surrounds that offered no great penalty for error, yet no great advantage for success?

I would take Tiger on at Pinehurst before I would at Bethpage...We went to great lengths a couple of years ago to prove that severe greens are the great equalizer...I doubt if Tiger could out putt me on the hood of a moving car..but he'd kick my ass at Bethpage..

[Mark Bourgeois]

Fair point. Length is a killer...ask Corey Pavin.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

It gladdens my heart that your recollection was that the hypothesis I so vigorously supported was "proven" several years ago.  I'm sure there are quite a few though who will disagree with the word "proven."

 

[John Kavanaugh]

My hole would be the following:

360 yd Par 4
Gnarly waster bunker with no rakes starting at 90 yds from the green or at the 280 mark of the tee.
I would hit drive 270 leaving with 100 yds. exactly to the pin which would be on the back portion of the green with a steep dropoff to long rough grass hollow over the green..5 steps behind the pin.  
The hole would play into the wind and the pitch 5 steps in front of the pin would exceed 2%.    
I would be able to hit my drive 270, leaving 100 exactly to the pin.   Since I don't spin the ball a lot, I can fly my sand wedge exactly 100 yds. 80 % of the time, leaving myself with a birdie putt under 10 feet 50% of the time.
Since Tiger would have to lay up off the tee, we would have approximately the same shot into the green after his stingeg 2 iron or 3 wood.   Since he spins the ball a lot, he would have to play past the pin to draw the ball back to pin high.   But, there isn't room because of the drop off behind the green.   If he lands his shot pin high into the wind, he will draw the ball back to the front of the green and have a long birdie putt.   He will be forced to hit some kind of dead hands half wedge which, even for Tiger, is very difficult to judge distance.
Yep, I could play Tiger even or beat him most times on this hole.   That is the only one I can think of, however. that I would even have a chance.   But, I would bet on me on this hole.

Nice hole and better wedge play...

[Andy Troeger]

I don't think there is any hole where I could consistantly beat Tiger. The examples given are fine examples of holes that would give a better chance, but they are all based on him playing the hole poorly and me playing it well. This could happen on any hole in the world, but its not likely on any of them  I think that I'd have a much better chance on a par three, and much less on a par five. Four would be somewhere in the middle.

If Tiger's only goal was to "not lose" the hole, then why would he try any reckless shots. Now the game changes entirely if he has to beat me...then there is more incentive for him to really try to make something happen. Otherwise, we've all seen him play from ahead in majors...its a rare occasion when he makes mistakes and beats himself.

[Adam_F_Collins]

About 300 yards with water around the  fall-away green (so he couldn't drive it) and a green speed of about 6.

[ChasLawler]

The 10th at the Belfry would work just fine...

a well timed cell phone in my golf bag might help as well

[Jim_Kennedy]

JaKa,
I'd rather try it on a par 3. Tiger has gone +10 on them for 74 rounds this season but he's -62 on par 4s and -125 on par 5s

[Ben Voelker]

But, I would bet on me on this hole.

JWL, you'd bet on you?  No offense intended, but you might be the only person in the world that would bet you against Tiger.

I would certainly not be betting with myself against Tiger.  Of course, I'd try my best to prove myself wrong.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I think most of youse guys is figuring to play him mano on mano! No way Jose!

I saw someone write that Tiger's handicap would be plus 10. I'm off 17.

So it's a par 4, 355 yards long, a waste area from 180 to 330 and a big flat green (punchbowl edges) and as long as I've got 2 shots I'll take my chances against the alien.

[JWL]

Ben Voelker

LOL....you are correct.   What I meant to portray was that that would be the only hole where I would bet that I could beat Tiger.  I didn't mean to imply that I thought I would beat him....but I will say that I don't think he would beat me every time.....just most of the time on the hole I described.

[Doug Siebert]

This is too easy.  A 300 yard hole that's got a punchbowl green 150 yards in diameter that's very steep and stimps at 15, with the hole in the exact center.  I'll tie him every time!  Eventually he gets pissed off and has to leave for a big tournament so I'm declared the winner by default!

[A.G._Crockett]

JK:

It gladdens my heart that your recollection was that the hypothesis I so vigorously supported was "proven" several years ago.  I'm sure there are quite a few though who will disagree with the word "proven."

 

Tom,
OMG, it's back!

The green would have to be dead flat; if Tiger can't get it close, or make the putt, then I have NO chance whatsoever!

I'm taking that theory to the grave!