Huntingdon Valley 14th Green

[wsmorrison]

Here is the old version of the 14th green with Joe Kirkwood's half-moon bunker behind the green:



Here is my rendering of the green without the Kirkwood bunker.  I think the uninterrupted slope of the hill looks much better and the green site looks more like Flynn.  



A spy told me that the bunker has been removed!  Nice going Scott Anderson!

In fact, the green was designed by Donald Ross and likely JB McGovern.  The green was moved to the left to allow for new back tees.  Although Flynn had a very nice green next to a stream, I think the move was well done as this created a particularly brilliant tee shot on the fabulous par 5 15th hole.

Which look do you like better?

[Kyle Harris]

As the admitted spy, I like the latter look much much better.

Apparently there will be a small "bump" left behind that will be mowed as fairway.

The original green was down and to the right of the current green, bring the oblique bunkers into the middle of the line of play. (Now they sit well to the right, but carrying them will have the ball bounce down to the middle of the fairway. This is arguably the hardest hole on the B nine.

Frankly, I'd like to see the original green built... Have both greens used at times.

[wsmorrison]

That's very true about the former implications of the diagonal bunkers on the right.  They aren't really in play but with the fairway kick the left side can be carried to good advantage.  The small berm that Scott built near the bunkers to divert water is very subtle and in the fashion of Flynn's surface drainage techniques.

With the rear tee on 15 (the championship and members' tees are there, right?) it would be unwise to have the original green restored.  It must have been a great hole but the improvement to 15 probably was a sacrifice worth making.  

Of course, if you worked your arse off all night under some bright lights, it just might be finished by morning  

[Kyle Harris]

I had thought the original green was next to what is now the forward tee, but not in front of the other tees?

Guess I'll have to look at the original plans. But I am pretty sure there is still some evidence of the old green site next to the creek.

[wsmorrison]

Does Scott have copies of the Ross drawings?  The Flynn green was near the creek 50 yards or so beyond where it forked.  The original tees on 15 were on the far side of the creek.  The Ross back tees are right behind where the Flynn green was.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Interesting. I didn't know the hole was made shorter for the sake of the tees on 15. I thought the green was moved because the angle from the new tees would require I shot over the old green. 14 plays as one of the toughest on the course as is... I couldn't imagine an extra 30 yards on the approach.

Would that place the green in the woods that exist there today?

I do agree, the tees on 15 are perfect as they are now.  

[Jfaspen]

Admittedly, I haven't seen or played the course, but I think the hole offers more of a challenge without the bunker in back.
Now, the golfer only has the flag, and a backdrop of trees with which to allign his shot.   I think the removal of the bunker should increase the skill needed on the 2nd shot.

jf

[Kyle Harris]

Jeffrey,

It's actually a brute of a par 4. Almost 450 from the back tees. The fairway slopes right to left and the green is more accepting of a fade. From the landing area, the green is above the golfer. The fairway does flatten out the further left one goes with the tee shot, but that brings the woods and creek more into play.

The picture doesn't show it, but the creek then cross the fairway about 140 yards from the green.

[Jfaspen]

Thanks Kyle,

I kind of figured that out by re-reading your posts in the thread.

[Kyle Harris]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=%2B%22Abington,+PA%22&ll=40.128647,-75.106605&spn=0.003795,0.010192&t=k&hl=en

There is an aerial... the hole is in the center of the page.

[A_Clay_Man]

As long as you guys dont mind comments from people who have never been, Ill share some random thoughts.

I can see if the green was in it's orriginal position, the endless backdrop of what looks like another fairway moving perpendicular would create difficult depth perception issues. However, with the new green position and considering the length of the hole, I do not see the negative issue with the back bunker.

It reminds me of some of Thompson's bunkers at Banff. Or Mackenzies's fourth at The Valley Club, 16th at CPC, as well as other Mac, gems.

Just thought I'd stir the pot alittle since a love fest thread soon dies.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

It sounds like you're a bit confused.  Here's the Ross drawing showing the proposed changes (solid line) and the original Flynn (dotted line).  You can see that the Ross green isn't much closer than the Flynn green.  You can also see that the Ross tee is directly behind where the old Flynn green was.

The fairway was not changed according to the Ross plan.  The bunkers were retained and the fairway simply brought back towards the creek.

[wsmorrison]

Adam,

Stir away!  Flynn's use of back bunkers was limited.  Normally, he'd have a mound (natural in appearance) and a shallow bunker at the top.  The green would be sloped back to front making a more difficult recovery.  I cannot recall Flynn using something like this anywhere.  The photo doesn't show it well, but the mound is way out of scale and breaks up a natural slope with an enormous rise and fall that simply looks offensive.  The distant view I posted does not to proper justice to how fugly the thing is.

The Ross drawing shows Flynn's original green complex with a mound on the left at about 9 o'clock to the line of play with a bunker fronting the mound.  This was incorporated into the Ross green.  With the slope left to right and the mound, a draw was required into the green.

[Kyle Harris]

Thanks Wayne,

I had thought the old green was closer to the present tee and the angle had changed. Looks like Ross shifted the hole over to the left.

I am running around here, but will post a more substancive reply tonight.

[wsmorrison]

"I am running around here, but will post a more substancive reply tonight."

Is this from the Eyegor school of charades?  Sedagive!?

[Kyle Harris]

No, Frau Blaucher...  

(My mother)

[wsmorrison]

What knockers!

Vy sank you doktor.

[TEPaul]

HVGC's old pro Joe Kirkwood was apparently a real character and perhaps one of the best trick shot artists of his time but judging from his few design contributions at HVGC he wasn't much of an architect.

[Craig Disher]

Very nice work, Wayne.

Were those 6 little cell towers put in before or after the half-moon  bunker?  

[Kyle Harris]

They're leaving now too... Craig.

[wsmorrison]

"Very nice work, Wayne."

I had a very patient teacher, Craig.  Luckily 1% of what you tought me actually sunk in.  The other 99%?  Well at least you answer your phone when you see my name on your caller ID  

Merry Christmas!  Enjoy your southern and northern vacations.  I know you're longing for some golf.  I hope you have the right weather for your many outdoor activities.